I recall Super has Babidi taking much longer to awaken Majin Buu, such that it's Future Trunks who helps Kaoishin to prevent it.
"Flip side, it's entirely possible the Androids are impossible to beat without Future Trunks' interference, which can't happen without Vegeta."
Basically anyone could have come back in that time machine. It could have even been older Bulma. It didn't have to be some super-powerful badass, just someone who knew about the future.
A more dangerous factor about Vegeta not coming to Earth is that eventually Freeza might try to conquer it and the heroes wouldn't be prepared for him.
Edited by Sigilbreaker26 on Sep 1st 2018 at 3:04:22 PM
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"That leaves Babidi with Dabura under his control, but he has tunnel vision. Babidi has his heart set on Majin Buu and is unwilling to compromise. He explicitly sees Dabura and the others as stepping stones towards awakening Buu.
One wonders what would happen if Babidi is killed and Buu's pod destroyed without defeating Dabura first. 50/50 odds he either goes home or sticks around to kill people for lulz, since we have literally no idea what his personality is like outside of Babidi's mind control. There is a chance in such a chain of events that Dabura becomes the ultimate final battle.
...wow. That's...really fascinating. I mean, it's been said that Dabura and the Demon realm could have been antagonists all on their own (as it's one aspect of the franchise that Toriyama has never even tried to explore, and side materials have had to dip into it). If only huh.
One Strip! One Strip!I don't know if I'd call Gohan a coward. I mean, once he actually starts fighting in the Saiyan saga, he shows up to every fight. He fought Vegeta, he stood his ground against the Ginyus, he didn't run from Freeza until his dad ordered him to. It's true he doesn't love fighting like the others, but he gave it his all every time. I don't recall Gohan ever saying "Guys, we shouldn't fight, we should find a way to settle this peacefully." The only thing is that this time, while he consciously wanted to transform, his subconscious wouldn't let him, and I don't think that makes you a coward. Unless, maybe he's afraid of the transformation itself and what it'll make him do? I think he said something like that in the original, but there's no hint of it in the abridged version.
Now, if you want to call adult Gohan a pacifist/coward, then I'm all for that.
Edited by WillKeaton on Sep 1st 2018 at 10:12:31 AM
I definitely wouldn't conflate pacifist with coward, and it did rub me a little the wrong way that they sort of did that (though I guess they were coming from the position that Gohan isn't sincere about it and is just on a high horse).
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"Gohand wouldn't fight Cell, he knew he could beat him, but didn't want to "rage" boost...
Calling Adult Gohand either of those is wrong, and shame on ya for doing that.
Edited by randomness4 on Sep 1st 2018 at 10:37:54 AM
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.There is. One is a Reluctant Warrior or Martial Pacifist while the other is a Suicidal Pacifist or Actual Pacifist.
Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!And refusing/not wanting to fight when you are literally the only person who can falls into Suicidal Pacifist territory.
But Gohan DID fight Cell. When Goku told him to fight, he fought. He had trouble transforming, but that wasn't a choice. Unless you're insinuating that Gohan was afraid of transforming because he would become a monster, which is exactly what happened.
Edited by WillKeaton on Sep 1st 2018 at 12:17:18 PM
If he was actually trying, he wouldn't have needed to transform...
Gohand didn't want the rage boost to happen at all, I doubt either of them knew he would transform from it.
Edited by randomness4 on Sep 1st 2018 at 11:18:04 AM
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.Oh right. It is true that Gohan was strong enough to win without SSJ 2 at all.
I guess it could be said he was pulling his punches too much. If he'd just gotten serious and won the fight there'd been no need for the rage boost.
One Strip! One Strip!He's the ultimate DBZ character, born of the one thing no one can fight.
...Autocorrect.
An accursed foe if there ever was one.
One Strip! One Strip!The character is limited use per post.
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.The DBZA version of Gohan pretty clearly has some sort of PTSD, which is justifiable since he's a 11 year old who has been kidnapped twice, seen most of the people he knows die at least once, been beaten to near death a few times, and has a father that left him to go training for a significant portion of his life.
The above is why I have issues with Cell and Android 16's speeches in this episode (well that, and the fact that both of them are for the most part villains whose opinions should be ignored.) Perhaps we shouldn't blame the 11 year old for not solving all of the problems created by the adults.
Black Yakuzu 94 basically nailed it but I'll answer it anyways:
First the Gohan aspect, I flippin' loved the great saiyaman, and goofy teen Gohan, probably one of the few times I sortof identified with him instead of Krillin. But all the fans talked about how "out of character" it was that the awkward child with lots of power and a desire to help others... grew into an awkward teen with lots of power and a desire to help others, I did read DBZ out of order because the cell games and Saiyan saga volumes were often checked out at my library, but SS 2 Gohan reminded me of Ultimate Gohan who I read as "Trading brains for brawn and just making things worse as a result."
Second is Super Saiyan 2, While I like the Lightning, this was the start of making the power gap uncrossable for any non-saiyans. Instead of it being a form that provided a unique advantage needed to beat cell that SS 1 didn't (like maybe the lightning neutralizing his regeneration.) it was just "Super Saiyan, but better." And then we got SS 3 (Which was more like an "SS 2 grade three" when it should have been a magic based form that could better damage Buu.) further wrecking the power scaling.
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Piccolo's just under 18 I think.
Great Saiyaman's fine I think; I think more fans have a problem with how unearned Ultimate Gohan is even by DBZ powerup stands and how Goku swings in to become the top dog again.
I don't want to offend you, but your criticisms of SSJ 2 are wildly off base. Non-Saiyans had been left behind by miles even before SSJ1. The best power level a human has recorded in the manga is Krillin with 15k after Guru powered him up. Even if we also throw in the 75k figure for his mid-battle with Freeza from V-Jump, compare that to base Goku flying in with 3 million for the start of his fight with Freeza.
Heck, SSJ 2 wasn't even originally supposed to be accessible to anyone besides Gohan. It's not even called SSJ 2 originally, but just "Gohan's hidden power awakened".
I do agree that there should have been some sort of multiform balance.
But it's not like Dragonball ever had that before or since, barring stamina related issues like Kaioken and SSJ 3.
Edited by Sigilbreaker26 on Sep 1st 2018 at 7:27:21 PM
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"If Gohan could have easily beaten Cell, then he would have easily beaten Cell. If he were way stronger than Cell he could have easily dodged or blocked all his attacks. Instead he got the tar beaten out of him. At no point has Gohan ever displayed pacifistic tendencies in the middle of a fight he's committed himself to. He may have a greater power level than Cell, but I'm not sure he knew how to use it. Cell may just be more experienced than Gohan and made better use of his strength and speed.
I mean, that's kind of the issue. Gohan's "lack of resolve" was something he basically shed after the Saiyan fight, and yet it comes back here for no particular reason.
At least in the original, Gohan was half-assing this fight from the beginning and then when Cell gets spurred on by his speech he more or less just gives up.
Obviously things are a bit different in the abridged version (which makes what 16 said kind of weird), but I don't think we're supposed to see that as having changed much.
Edited by LSBK on Sep 1st 2018 at 2:20:21 PM
