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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#30376: Apr 22nd 2018 at 6:50:46 PM

Just because the story says he screwed up doesn't mean you have to agree with it (or at least the way it did).

Piccolo's logic in telling Goku off really just doesn't fit (especially coming from him), and the entire thing kind of goes against the general idea that Goku doesn't "get" family in the first place: if Goku didn't see Gohan differently from other people he never would have had that "epiphany" in the first place.

Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#30377: Apr 22nd 2018 at 6:58:55 PM

It would have been a lot better to not just tell Gohan at the last minute he was fighting Cell or again giving him a heal or just taking another bean himself and just tag team cell. The arena is gone does it matter if it is a one on one or not fight anymore at that point.

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#30378: Apr 22nd 2018 at 7:03:36 PM

Yes, that would be better. My point isn't that Goku didn't make mistakes with the situation, it's that many of the things people call mistakes on his part just don't logically make sense as mistakes given the information he had, and using that entire situation to paint Piccolo as "the better father" or whatever has several holes in it.

edited 22nd Apr '18 7:04:55 PM by LSBK

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#30379: Apr 22nd 2018 at 7:06:40 PM

You can't really blame people for that though since the show makes a point that you're supposed to be think "Goku fucked up", even if it was necessary at the time.

Truthfully, that whole sequence never made much sense to me. Why try to make a big deal out of Goku making a mistake if said "mistake" was the only option they had. I don't get what Toriyama was going for that and the entire issue is extremely muddled because of it.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#30380: Apr 22nd 2018 at 7:15:57 PM

Negative writing...

Pesky insecurities when Gohand becomes the primary...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#30381: Apr 22nd 2018 at 7:21:58 PM

I'm pretty sure I know what he was going for, and I know why people like it. It just doesn't work well to me.

I think he was going for the idea that a father should "put his children ahead of everything else" and thus he shouldn't have had Gohan fight Cell despite it literally being the only way to keep the entire world (including Gohan) from dying.

Considering the situation and the World of Dragon Ball, something like that just doesn't work, but people want it to. It's the same reason people go "Chichi has a point" even though the "point" she has really isn't what people think it is.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#30382: Apr 22nd 2018 at 7:24:09 PM

Is that why Gohand was acting the way he was?

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Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#30383: Apr 22nd 2018 at 7:39:42 PM

[up][up] It just doesn't work well for me because of how it is framed.

That Gohan is informed last minute.

That they keep to a one on one format or Goku waiting till it was to late to heal up.

Definitely would look better for the two to just fight cell together.

Chi Chi does have a point to a degree and that is one should have an education and not spend all their time training. She just takes it to far since one should not neglect their physical training.

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#30384: Apr 22nd 2018 at 7:44:55 PM

Informed of what?

That he was gonna be fighting Cell?

Kakarrot didn't tell him anything that he shouldn't have already known.

edited 22nd Apr '18 7:45:41 PM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#30385: Apr 22nd 2018 at 7:54:58 PM

Gohan being informed at the last minute was probably done more so to have it as a twist that surprised readers, because Toriyama foreshadowed it in advance before outright coming out with it.

It's just the thing that makes for a good reveal but then doesn't make a great deal of sense

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#30386: Apr 22nd 2018 at 7:56:37 PM

Unnecessary Twist/shock reveal...

Indeed.

edited 22nd Apr '18 7:57:01 PM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#30387: Apr 22nd 2018 at 8:24:36 PM

Oh boy, another "Is Goku an asshole" debate. Might as well talk about power levels again.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#30388: Apr 22nd 2018 at 8:25:55 PM

Gohan being informed at the last minute was probably done more so to have it as a twist that surprised readers, because Toriyama foreshadowed it in advance before outright coming out with it. It's just the thing that makes for a good reveal but then doesn't make a great deal of sense

Honestly, it probably would have worked better if Goku had told Gohan offscreen. That way, while the audience (and the other Z Warriors) are still in the dark, Gohan is aware that he'll be fighting Cell (but doesn't really believe his dad can lose).

It also makes Goku's revelation that he's stronger than him better: Gohan has been told, but he doesn't buy, and since he's assuming that his dad is still pulling his punches (like he did in canon) he still gets a surprise when Goku tells him that the reason it seems like Goku is holding back is because he's comparing him to himself.

And that, combined with Gohan actually going into the fight taking on a now re-powered Cell, makes Gohan get that his dad was right, just like canon.

Gohan being in on it, but not fully buying it until he gets some more context could help a lot if you ask me.

One Strip! One Strip!
Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#30389: Apr 22nd 2018 at 8:27:18 PM

I could see that working a lot better also.

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#30390: Apr 22nd 2018 at 8:31:33 PM

If Gohand still ends up not actually fighting...it wouldn't really matter.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#30391: Apr 22nd 2018 at 8:32:23 PM

Why do you keep calling him Gohand?

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#30392: Apr 22nd 2018 at 8:34:21 PM

Because I don't feel like using the correct names anymore...

Eh eh eh...and stuff.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#30393: Apr 22nd 2018 at 8:34:55 PM

It's obviously because of auto-correct.

It's done the same to me as well.

One Strip! One Strip!
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#30394: Apr 22nd 2018 at 8:48:01 PM

randomness4 has a pet name for almost every character.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#30395: Apr 23rd 2018 at 12:06:52 AM

Goku not telling Gohan in advance makes perfect sense for his character. It's the crux of his mistake: that he thinks Gohan is just like him. To Goku, he doesn't have to tell Gohan. Gohan's going to be chomping at the bit to fight Cell, just like he would be. Goku thinks Gohan's reaction is going to be,

"Really?! SWEET! Let me power up and I'll jump right in to fight him! This is my birthday and Christmas all rolled into one! I can't wait to get started! I'm going to punch this go so hard, it's going to be awesome!"

It's easy to recognize that Gohan would never react like that if you know the kid, but that's the point of the scene: Goku doesn't. Not really. He looks at Gohan and sees Goku Jr., and it's only after Piccolo calls him out on it that he recognizes where he screwed up.

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#30396: Apr 23rd 2018 at 12:09:00 AM

That only works if you assume that Goku does see Gohan as "Goku Jr." which I don't think had been implied, well, ever.

Unless I'm remembering incorrectly, Goku flat out says he knows that Gohan wants to be a scholar and all that at the same time he's telling him that he's stronger than him. He was not oblivious to this.

edited 23rd Apr '18 12:10:57 AM by LSBK

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#30397: Apr 23rd 2018 at 12:18:59 AM

Kakarrot wasn't simply seeing his son as eager to fight as him, the plan was that he would just fight Cell without holding back...

The other thing is that he thought Cell would push Gohand to anger rage boost and that would guarantee that he had the advantage...because insecurities...

edited 23rd Apr '18 12:20:11 AM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#30398: Apr 23rd 2018 at 12:27:53 AM

The main plan was to rely on Gohan's rage boost, Gohan even says that he realized as much himself.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#30399: Apr 23rd 2018 at 2:22:09 AM

No, Gohan comes to that conclusion while still trying to rationalize why Goku picked him. It doesn't mean he's correct and it is in line with his disbelief that he had surpassed Goku.

Goku never indicates that he was relying on Gohan's rage boost. Once Gohan starts getting beaten up by not fighting back, he says that their only hope is Gohan's rage boost, but he doesn't seem sure on relying on it.

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#30400: Apr 23rd 2018 at 7:16:27 AM

Nah, there's nothing that indicates that Gohan was wrong about that, and Goku's confidence in the rage boost plan doesn't imply that it was some sort of backup.


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