Defeating Drum notes a clear gap...but that was after the tournament...
Since then, Ten spent most of his time training to use the ECW...
While Karrot was being carried by Yajirobe to drink his new power up...
edited 27th Jan '18 4:28:09 AM by randomness4
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.Vegeta is an upper class Sayian though, he breaks the lower class Sayian traits such as valuing family and his ‘fighting instinct’ is proving he is superior to his opponent. He goes Tsundere to the one opponent that constantly beats him.
Goku is the exact opposite, he does not value family and he wants to fight people he knows are stronger than him to the point he actually becomes a bit of a fanboy to them. Those people include Cell, Gohan, Buu, Hit, Pikkon, Beerus, once he surpasses them though he loses interest.
edited 27th Jan '18 4:35:45 AM by Memers
It's literally his only strategy. He should at least run away; even if it offends his martial artist sensibilities, he's already abandoned them by this point.
Also, you've got to agree, having the denshi jar plan fail because of a crack in the jar is the most anti-climactic thing ever.
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"I don't think it would make a difference, Piccolo's faster than him and can sense ki. Ten really had no hope at that point.
The Mafuba was never anything near the climax so I don't find that anti-climactic at all. It's actually pretty logical when you're relying on a physical object that is so frail in comparison to the characters.
My only wish was that they'd used this arc or the next to more concretely explain why the Mafuba wouldn't be used after the 23rd Budokai arc
The Mafuba took Tien (someone who just decided to do the Kamehameha once just because) a long time to learn; it also usually kills the user (and we're not really clear on what power level it stops doing that). and most of the cast consider it dishonourable to use. Now, if you say "the last decision is idiotic" then you're correct but it applies to a lot more things than just the Mafuba.
Okay, let's look at the battles post King Piccolo:
- Piccolo Jr. - they didn't even know he existed till they turned up at the tournament and Kami tries to use it on him anyway (doesn't take)
- Raditz - no time to prepare
- Vegeta and Nappa - there was time to prepare but they were fighting multiple people who they had good reason to believe they were stronger than. They thought Raditz would be the baseline for the Saiyans they would be fighting anyway, unless you count anime filler, so they definitely weren't expecting one guy to be 3 times Raditz's power and the other guy to be like, 12 times his power. If two Raditzes - or even two people twice as strong as Raditz - they could have probably taken care of it before Goku even got there.
- Namek - I'm pretty sure they weren't even expecting to fight anyone when they originally got to Namek. I guess you could argue Goku could have learnt it on the way there, so there's that.
- Android Saga - They already pass up a perfectly good way to get rid of the androids when they don't just use the Dragonballs to wish for Gero's location and kill him. The android Saga is one long Idiot Plot anyway
- Buu Saga - basically ditto from above.
Like, from a logical standpoint I can understand if you believe that they don't leverage the mafuba as much as they should, but there are a lot of other things I can say the same for about DB.
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"Going back a bit but:
If the numbers are the entire problem then it's a problem people blow up way more than they should because the numbers weren't actually around for very long. But it's clear that when most people say "fuck power levels" they're not (just) talking about the numerical values, but the simple fact that, yes, sometimes characters can just be so much stronger than another character that nothing that character will do to them will work.
The rest of this complaint isn't even about the numbers, so you're hindering your entire point. Furthermore, you haven't given a reason why no FragileSpeedsters, StoneWalls or GlassCannons are bad, you just assume it should be taken as a given that it is. Like I said, it's just more window dressing to try and make the issue seem more complicated than it actually is.
edited 27th Jan '18 9:24:28 AM by LSBK
I mean, yes, the numbers didn't exist. What the numbers represented where still there after the scouters done, but that was there before scouters were introduced.
"Stronger people have more energy and stronger people usually win" is not something that was introduced along scouters and numerical power levels. And that it was true also didn't mean that characters didn't try to strategize or anything like that.
edited 27th Jan '18 9:41:31 AM by LSBK
You know, I remember during Vegeta's and Goku's first fight, Goku says something along the lines of skill eventually beating out raw power. And then Goku used an technique to surpass Vegeta in raw power.
I think that moment specifically could have been a real turning point, if they had actually stuck with the "skill beats power" mindset.
The numbers are what I specifically have the most problem with. I'm not inherently opposed to one character being broadly speaking stronger than another. Yes, they were only around for a short period of the story, but they also introduced a much more static way of thinking that just compelled the series to rely more and more on transformations and cheap powerups like Ultimate Gohan.
As for why Glass Cannon, Stone Wall etc. are important, look at how entertaining the Dypso/Hit fight was when it pitted one character with a way higher speed than he should have had if we went by the late-Z system against a guy with a very tricky power. That's a much better way to handle it than having a system where every stat goes up with power.
edited 27th Jan '18 10:04:43 AM by Sigilbreaker26
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"You assume I found Dyspo vs Hit entertaining. There were still some noticeable leaps in logic there. Plus, Dyspo's speed isn't really all that consistent either.
Regardless, Super-Speed is not a tricky power. I notice that a lot with you, equating anything that isn't brute physical strength as "tricky" or "intelligent", when often those powers are just a simple and straightforward as pure brute strength, just in different ways.
edited 27th Jan '18 10:06:52 AM by LSBK
I was referring to Hit's time skip as the tricky power, actually. It's tricky to deal with, certainly, I'm not saying that it makes someone necessarily more intelligent to have it (though Hit proved to have some neat ideas, like faking the tell when he used it to throw off Dypso).
edited 27th Jan '18 10:09:41 AM by Sigilbreaker26
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"Well, yes, since this is DB you can indeed just defy power over time by grunting and powering up to the appropriate degree. Some things, apparently, never change.
However, Dypso isn't strong enough to do that, though he is fast enough to defy it in other ways, so it's a very unique match-up.
If you're asking "why would Dypso need to match up to the time skip" they do explain that - he needs to start moving at just the perfect instant for it to take.
But if Hit were to fake him out and instead make a different move, since Time Stop requires him to stand still for an instant - he can take advantage of Dypso's speed and turn the tables.
edited 27th Jan '18 10:19:22 AM by Sigilbreaker26
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"I guess people liked Piccolo and Vegeta because they were able to keep up with Goku, and were at times stronger than him while not being antagonists. Vegeta is still able to keep up, a step behind but he keeps going, but it is a shame Piccolo, aka the guy who wanted to be wished to Namek to fight Freeza, pretty much retired as well, or focused on training others. Hell, Cell blamed his battlelust on having his cells as much as the Saiyan's.
Oh well, blame Shin.
See, Piccolo actually got a pretty good gig, since he ended up as team tactician and also a sort of mentor figure for Goku's various offspring. I think he got the best semi-retirement out of any of the characters.
Mistare fusion once described it thusly: "Even when everyone else is being an idiot you can usually count on Piccolo to keep his head." His one dumb moment was more a flat miscalculation than outright stupidity (thinking he could kill 17 to stop Cell absorbing him) and is overshadowed by the more serious stupidity of... everyone else.
edited 27th Jan '18 11:32:51 AM by Sigilbreaker26
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"

Goku was never the stereotypical Saiyan. Even though his selfish would at times cause him to agree with Vegeta, that doesn't make him a stereotype. Vegeta found himself fundamentally unable to understand Goku all the way up to the final battle with Boo, and when he realizes Goku's perspective, it's also completely different to what a stereotypical Saiyan is.