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Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#29701: Jan 26th 2018 at 9:55:58 PM

[up] Considering I didn't mention "skill" or "intelligence" once in what I just said you might want to reread my comment sir.

Also, the fact that they are numbers is the entire problem with them. There's a difference between consistency and just completely calcifying your power system, especially given that power levels don't just measure strength, but speed, durability, potentially also reaction speed. They totally remove alternatives between characters. There's no such thing as a Fragile Speedster, or a Stone Wall, or a Glass Cannon in Dragonball if you let power levels decide everything.

Consistency is important but you can't sacrifice everything interesting in a story to it, which is increasingly what started happening with power levels.

edited 26th Jan '18 10:02:56 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#29702: Jan 26th 2018 at 9:57:25 PM

I was speaking generally there, not about your specific comment.

Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#29703: Jan 26th 2018 at 9:59:52 PM

Goku is also a more skilled and talented fighter. People ignore that to make the humans seem more special when they're not.

Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#29704: Jan 26th 2018 at 10:22:30 PM

I imagine the problem in super is that suddenly out of thin air people that were far below everyone seemed to have apparently caught up in a short period of time. I would say tournament of power works better in that at the very least it looks like there is a wide range of skill levels in terms of people from other universes and the idea that tactics actually mattered.

Though the pacing problem tends to be the fault of the anime which is par for the course with an anime following closely behind the manga. There was also not a lot of room for filler arcs in the plot I imagine. Which is why fights were extended and new fights were added to the original Z anime.

Like Base Vegito vs Super Gohan Buu which is one of my favorite fights. I like the idea of Vegito being so superior to Buu that he really didn't need to go super to beat the tar out of him.

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#29705: Jan 26th 2018 at 10:24:55 PM

I think the manga had passing issues but the opposite problem: things felt too fast and incomplete, at least at the parts I've read. Though apparently chapters were shorter when Toriyama was writing Dragon Ball, so that's definitely a part of it.

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#29706: Jan 26th 2018 at 11:04:25 PM

[up][up][up]Goku is an alien with a natural inborn advantage who literally gets stronger after every fight. Same deal with the other Sayans. If Goku was human, I'd agree with you, but the fact that he has a built in boost kind of makes your point mute.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#29707: Jan 26th 2018 at 11:06:24 PM

No it doesn't. Even outside of strength Goku has always been more talented than those around him, picking up things at a glance that took years for other people to master. And that's not a Saiyan thing, that's a Goku thing.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#29708: Jan 26th 2018 at 11:09:43 PM

He doesn't literally get stronger after every fight, for the first half of the series no-one is even aware of that and after Freeza it doesn't come up again.

He was still better than anyone before he was getting boosts like that. And those boosts having nothing to do with skill,

There are a shitton of ways DB could be improved. Not sidelining the human characters, axing Power Levels, ("FUCK POWER LEVELS!") giving everyone not named Goku more moments to shine, tighter pacing, death actually mattering, having skill and cunning play more of a role in fights than just brute force and power ups (which incidentally would help the human characters immensely), and more besides.

I disagree with almost all of this, but more importantly I don't think LSBK was saying anything about DB not being able to be improved. I think it has many areas it could improve in, but being more like TFS sure as shit isn't one of them.

DBZA works because it's a parody (and even then, there are plenty of moments when it really doesn't work). Also, being more like TFS has nothing to do with the points you raised.

Nearly every time TFS try to take DBZA seriously, they churn out some of their absolute worst content.

edited 26th Jan '18 11:10:13 PM by Saiga

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#29709: Jan 26th 2018 at 11:11:18 PM

People tend to stop noticing Kakarrot's fighting talent because he's constantly put against people who're just really strong and brute force is more effective than actual fighting ability.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#29710: Jan 26th 2018 at 11:12:16 PM

An example of Goku's battle genius was mastering the Super Saiyan transformation by simply getting used to it.

Even the supposed Prince of all Saiyan's never thought of it.

[up] He's actually started showing more tactics in Super for the most part. His recent attacks on Jiren were really cool.

edited 26th Jan '18 11:13:02 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#29711: Jan 26th 2018 at 11:13:17 PM

So him being more skilled than anyone else just because he happens to be so much more naturally intuitive is supposed to make things better?

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#29712: Jan 26th 2018 at 11:15:26 PM

You can dislike that too if you want, but implying he only has superior strength going for him against the likes of Krillin and Tien is just wrong. He's just an all around better fighter, and that also happens to include being stronger than them.

edited 26th Jan '18 11:15:59 PM by LSBK

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#29713: Jan 26th 2018 at 11:16:02 PM

[up]...

Then I guess I dislike that too.tongue

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#29714: Jan 26th 2018 at 11:18:00 PM

He's the main character.

Of course he's better than them.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#29715: Jan 26th 2018 at 11:18:15 PM

Then I think you just don't like Dragon Ball.

My various fanfics.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#29716: Jan 26th 2018 at 11:20:31 PM

When has the main character in anything been an all around better fighter than literally everyone else?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#29717: Jan 26th 2018 at 11:22:29 PM

I mean, that's very often the end goal. It's not like Goku was always the best, there were people who could beat or match him, but after he beat them he left them in the dust.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#29718: Jan 26th 2018 at 11:26:54 PM

The only characters who were legit stronger than him when he lost the first time were villains...

He left everyone else in the dust before he beat them...then beat them later...

edited 26th Jan '18 11:28:04 PM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#29719: Jan 26th 2018 at 11:28:38 PM

[up]x4 It's not that I don't like Dragonball. Not entirely. I read the entire OG manga up to the Saiyan arc and I enjoyed that. But I'm not going to say it was perfect, and I'm not going to say I'm the biggest fan. DB can be fun. But it can also be frustrating, especially Z. Essentially for all the reasons I've already mentioned. I prefer my main characters to be more or less on equal footing, or at least for most of them to be useful or relevant in some way. I prefer for skill to be either just as important or more in a fight than brute force. And I prefer death to actually matter. And there are any number of others things I could list. It's probably the same reason I haven't read/watched a lot of fighting manga/anime. There are some I've really liked like Mahou Sensei Negima or Jojo, but those tend to deviate a bit more from the DB model than most fighting shows.

I also don't mind the hero being more powerful than everyone else, but not that more powerful than everyone else. Or if they are, then at least have everyone else still be useful.

edited 26th Jan '18 11:28:52 PM by kkhohoho

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#29720: Jan 26th 2018 at 11:28:53 PM

[up][up]Doesn't change that there was someone stronger than him. And Tien and him were basically even when they fought were they not?

edited 26th Jan '18 11:34:54 PM by LSBK

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#29721: Jan 26th 2018 at 11:30:31 PM

With Dragon Ball's cast you're not going to have 'everyone else' being useful. There are plenty of characters who can rival Goku in various areas, hell by the end of the manga he's only the third strongest good guy if you exclude Vegetto.

There are just some characters who are straight up worse than him and that's fine.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#29722: Jan 26th 2018 at 11:33:31 PM

[up][up][up]But death does matter, it motivates the characters as it should.

[up][up]No, Ten was definitely weaker. Kakarrot still had enough energy to propel himself, while Ten couldn't even move.

edited 26th Jan '18 11:37:53 PM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#29723: Jan 26th 2018 at 11:34:02 PM

Almost all Battle Shonen end up being MC stomps everyone and is better than everyone cause its a Self Insert Character, Goku being a terrible father and a Wild Child really are the only things that differentiate him from everyone else and I would chock that up to being an Ur-Example to the now standard version of the trope.

No Battle Shonen ever gives all of its characters the attention they deserve.

edited 26th Jan '18 11:39:06 PM by Memers

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#29724: Jan 26th 2018 at 11:35:39 PM

Saying "Death is cheap" because the Dragon Balls exist doesn't really count because that is predicated on the protagonists winning. And they, in-universe, don't know for a certainty that they're going to.

My various fanfics.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#29725: Jan 27th 2018 at 4:05:02 AM

I'd say that, while I mostly like it, there are three things about Goku's alien heritage that annoy me. The first is how it tries to retcon some of his victories to Zenkai boosts by having characters say that Goku got stronger after every loss (not that they were there for either of his major losses to first Taopaipai or Demon King Piccolo).

The second is how every powerup since became some sort of Super Saiyan transformation, which has continued into Super with the notable exception of using Kaioken in SSB. It just gets really old after a while.

The third and final problem I have is how it tries to have Goku act stupid or make decisions and then justify it with "cos he's a Saiyan". The original appeal of the reveal was how Goku broke Saiyan stereotypes by being merciful and by not wanting to destroy the Earth, but ever since that it seems that all of his previously established character traits became Saiyan traits and Goku is now the stereotypical Saiyan for some reason.

Also, whether Tien was weaker than Goku in their first encounter is a tricky question; Tien only starts landing hits when Master Shen secretly orders Chaotzu to use TK to hold Goku in place. When Tien finds out he has them stop and allows Goku to pummel him for a while in recompense, but it's after this that he starts having a lot more success against Goku - it's possible Tien's body is more durable than Goku's. As the battle goes on Tien finally finishes with his Kikohoing the arena strategy (he's merciful enough to flat out order Goku to dodge). It's entirely possible that had he just used the Kikoho on Goku that he might have outright killed him, so that muddies the water a bit. The finale of the battle, famously, comes down to pure luck and a car. So I'd say that Goku has the advantage in this fight in a tournament match but had they been trying to kill each other I'd say that Tien might have had a shot.

Of course, by the time they meet again and Tien is trying to defeat Drum the difference is clear; Tien can't overpower Drum and gets the stuffing beaten out of him, Goku one shots Drum.

edited 27th Jan '18 4:13:19 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"

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