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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#29251: Jan 7th 2018 at 6:55:09 PM

IIRC, Daikaio is mentioned in the manga; he just doesn't show up in person.

edited 7th Jan '18 6:56:14 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#29252: Jan 7th 2018 at 7:01:40 PM

Toriyama also designed the Grand Kai, so his canonicity is dubious. Presumably, he's the one in charge when Shin is called away by Zeno for multiversal stuff.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#29253: Jan 7th 2018 at 7:02:36 PM

Im not saying Goku has to be a good father for DB to be good. But exaggerating his negative qualities to the extreme that Super has done so, without doing anything with it does hurt the story in my view.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#29254: Jan 7th 2018 at 7:08:24 PM

Anime or manga, I'm pretty sure Toriyama in an interview has said that he considers Goku a terrible father.

What? No!

Yeah, he's said that. I disagree with that being applicable to how Goku was portrayed in the manga and dislike Toriyama portraying him differently to get his original idea across more.

Why? Why would you do this Toriyama? Evolution was bad, but that doesn't make this right!

You hear me! This isn't right!

One Strip! One Strip!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#29255: Jan 7th 2018 at 7:16:27 PM

I do wonder if Toriyama making Goku more explicitly a bad parent is a product of time and hindsight. Like, I do agree that while Goku did a lot of things that were heavily criticized with his parenting back in the original manga, it's not clear that Toriyama necessarily meant for him to be a bad father then.

But that was like 20 years ago. The series has been dissected and deliberated to death, and Toriyama's undoubtedly heard a lot of opinions about it since its conclusion.

It might be that he wasn't intending to portray Goku as a bad dad but then, years later, looked back and went, "Huh. Goku was kind of a shitty father, wasn't he?" At which point, you got two options as an author: try and throw in a bunch of after-the-fact rationalizations and an Author's Saving Throw or two to go, "NONONONONO he was REALLY a good dad, honest!" or just shrug your shoulders and accept this accidental bit of characterization as canon.

I do agree with Saiga's criticism that Super needs to do something with it. If Toriyama's onboard with the idea that Goku's fathering is shit, there should be a confrontation about it. This should be a point of conflict to ultimately resolve.

edited 7th Jan '18 7:19:15 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#29256: Jan 7th 2018 at 7:20:30 PM

Toriyama said that he always intended Goku to have 'poison' in him, and was dissappointed that the anime didn't potray that. He also wondered if he had been too subtle in his portrayal, so I think recent material is just him overcorrecting.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#29257: Jan 7th 2018 at 7:21:07 PM

I still think you're missing the point here Tobias. Whether Toriyama always intended for him to be a bad father or not doesn't really matter for how Goku was written, and although he wasn't originally written as the greatest father in the world, many of the things people, yourself included, use to paint him as one are not inarguable or indisputable facts.

The whole "why didn't he contact his family while dead" thing, is one, for example. Really, it doesn't really matter what Toriyama wanted, if it didn't come through that way for some people, there's no changing it now.

And like Saiga said, playing up Goku's bad traits just for the sake of it with no apparent greater intention to do anything with it, does not make the story better.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#29258: Jan 7th 2018 at 7:24:28 PM

I honestly think this is just another one of Toriyama's "write by the seat of his pants" style. He exaggerated Goku's negative qualities because that's what he wanted to do, nothing more or nothing less. He had no grand character development in mind for Goku and I doubt he ever will, because it's not something he's interested in.

And if it contradicts previous characterization and story....welp, tough cookies. He probably forgot about a lot of the older story details he's written and likely doesn't care to go back and look at what makes sense, because once again, it's not something he's interested in doing.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#29259: Jan 7th 2018 at 7:25:22 PM

Death of the Author in this case then.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#29260: Jan 7th 2018 at 7:33:48 PM

Honestly with the way Chi Chi has always been written and the story treats her as having a point as well as being rewarded for it from the first episode on ward. Goku was always meant to be the one that was bad.

Also remember the english version of Z doctored up Goku to make him seem FAR more heroic than he actually was. Goku isnt the model anything but a fighter, even being a hero tends to be incidental to his other goals.

He isnt fighting the Red Ribbon army to be the big hero taking down an evil org, he is only doing it for the dragonballs.

edited 7th Jan '18 7:36:08 PM by Memers

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#29261: Jan 7th 2018 at 7:38:59 PM

In what way has the story treated Chi-chi as if she were right or rewarded her? And if anyone was talking about the English dub or Goku being like Superman or whatever that would be relevant, but that isn't what we've been talking about.

edited 7th Jan '18 7:39:23 PM by LSBK

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#29262: Jan 7th 2018 at 7:40:02 PM

I think Goku summarized it best himself in the Android 17 recruitment episode: "I don't go out looking to right wrongs or save other people, I just like fighting and getting a challenge. But I'm also not going to sit around and do nothing if innocent people are being hurt right in front of me."

edited 7th Jan '18 7:42:42 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#29263: Jan 7th 2018 at 7:41:38 PM

This in particular annoys me because if a character's portrayal is popular, even if it the author feels that it's wrong, then changing that portrayal (especially to the extent that Toriyama did) seems like a bad idea.

This song needs more love.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#29264: Jan 7th 2018 at 8:00:56 PM

I honestly think this is just another one of Toriyama's "write by the seat of his pants" style. He exaggerated Goku's negative qualities because that's what he wanted to do, nothing more or nothing less. He had no grand character development in mind for Goku and I doubt he ever will, because it's not something he's interested in. And if it contradicts previous characterization and story....welp, tough cookies. He probably forgot about a lot of the older story details he's written and likely doesn't care to go back and look at what makes sense, because once again, it's not something he's interested in doing.

I agree with this.

[up] I also agree with this, but as the quote pointed out, Toriyama will do what he wants regardless of anything else, even what he's written before.

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#29265: Jan 7th 2018 at 8:07:04 PM

What doesn't help is that no one really challenges Toriyama on this.

If he says something Tohei & Toyotaro will follow suit like blind fanboys.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#29266: Jan 7th 2018 at 8:46:51 PM

Well there was that one dude who kept making him change the Villain of the Android saga.

I mean, if someone was willing to do that in a more positive way rather than just making him do the super villain shuffle, maybe shit like this wouldn't happen.

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#29267: Jan 7th 2018 at 8:48:37 PM

That guy didn't make him do anything, he was just someone whose opinion Toriyama respected. And he's said he wants the manga and anime team to do their own thing more often, they just don't want to.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#29268: Jan 7th 2018 at 8:48:47 PM

That was also the guy who thought women shouldn't be fighters

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#29269: Jan 7th 2018 at 8:50:31 PM

[up] Wait that is the same guy who is practically the reason why the Cell Saga became what it is?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#29270: Jan 7th 2018 at 8:52:49 PM

Yup, Torishima. Kondo was his current editor who disliked semi-perfect Cell and made him change it

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#29271: Jan 7th 2018 at 8:54:05 PM

Oh so the editor change happened during the Cell Saga?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#29272: Jan 7th 2018 at 8:55:13 PM

Nah, it was between the Namek and Cell arcs. It's just that Toriyama continued to listen to him after he was no longer his editor.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#29273: Jan 7th 2018 at 8:55:42 PM

Ohhhhhhhh.

Ah such an interesting history.

edited 7th Jan '18 8:55:52 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#29274: Jan 7th 2018 at 9:42:50 PM

It's funny to think how much the Android Saga was derailed because of the opinion of someone who Toriyama didn't even actually need to listen to.

That was also the guy who thought women shouldn't be fighters

....oh....well now I dislike him.

edited 7th Jan '18 9:43:05 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#29275: Jan 7th 2018 at 9:48:27 PM

Wait, then why did Toriyama think Android 18 would wow him after he expressed his disapproval of 19 and 20?

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

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