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Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#29226: Jan 7th 2018 at 1:43:36 PM

Didn't Krillin get weak enough that Bullets were a threat to him? That's like... going sub-10 in terms of power.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#29227: Jan 7th 2018 at 1:45:19 PM

Is that from the Super anime? Because they also had Krillin defeating Gohan in a fight.

Toei's never actually cared about power levels.

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#29228: Jan 7th 2018 at 1:54:37 PM

I always find it weird how people avting like Goku not communicating while he was dead as some indefensible thing. If he's dead he might as well be dead. Talking to them isn't going to make accepting he's gone any easier.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#29229: Jan 7th 2018 at 2:01:24 PM

Why does anyone need to accept that he's gone? Accepting the passing of a loved one when they die is important because we'll never see or hear from them again and we have to make peace with that. This is not the case with Goku. He's only "gone" in the sense that he refused resurrection and then decided to never speak to his family through the channels available to him.

Plus, even setting aside the Death Is Cheap nature of the setting, a setting with a proven afterlife means that nobody's ever gone. Chi-Chi and Gohan have every reason to expect that he'll be waiting for them when they pass on, so there's nothing to accept. He's not gone, he's just momentarily absent.

Things like this are what make this TFS bit so poignant:

  • Bulma: You haven't called me in months.
  • Yamcha: I'VE BEEN DEAD!!!
  • Bulma: Well, that's not stopping you now, is it?

edited 7th Jan '18 2:02:21 PM by TobiasDrake

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LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#29230: Jan 7th 2018 at 2:01:33 PM

[up][up][up][up]The same thing happened to Goku. I think bullets in the Dragon Ball universe just got stronger.

[up][up][up]While it is true that Super doesn't care about power levels, Gohan did lose by ring-out.

edited 7th Jan '18 2:01:47 PM by LordVatek

This song needs more love.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#29231: Jan 7th 2018 at 2:04:57 PM

[up][up]Is Grandpa Gohan just momentarily absent? Is Chi-chi's mother? A proven afterlife doesn't mean everyone stays together after death, especially since reincarnation is a thing here.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#29232: Jan 7th 2018 at 2:06:13 PM

Grandpa Gohan took advantage of supernatural opportunities presented to him in order to see his adopted grandson one last time. He didn't stay a part of Goku's life after his death, but only for lack of ability; he could only have one day and he used it.

There's no reason to assume that if he had access to a phone that could call Goku from the afterlife, he wouldn't have used it.

edited 7th Jan '18 2:07:05 PM by TobiasDrake

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#29233: Jan 7th 2018 at 2:12:12 PM

There's no reason to assume he would do it either.

edited 7th Jan '18 2:12:44 PM by LSBK

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#29234: Jan 7th 2018 at 2:15:35 PM

Is Grandpa Gohan just momentarily absent? Is Chi-chi's mother? A proven afterlife doesn't mean everyone stays together after death, especially since reincarnation is a thing here.

Well, they aren't relevant to the plot are they? I mean, as Tobias pointed out, Gohan took an opportunity to come back and see Goku again as soon as it was available, but that was because Toriyama wanted it to happen.

It also helps that Gohan took care of his business and saw that Goku is doing well, so he has no reason to come back or need to hear him again, because he knows Goku doesn't need him, but it's also because once he served his purpose in the plot, there was no reason for Gohan the elder to ever come back.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#29235: Jan 7th 2018 at 2:48:11 PM

It is very clear that the characters are not as flippant about death as fans want them to be. Don't forget that the cast has their own ways to contact Goku, and never did. The entire casts still treats death as a significant thing that should be respected.

This is not a Goku thing.

edited 7th Jan '18 2:48:37 PM by Saiga

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#29236: Jan 7th 2018 at 3:07:53 PM

The method by which we're discussing is Kaio-sama, who was with Goku for all seven of the years that he was dead. He could literally have spoken to anyone at any time and, in fact, does so at the start of the Buu arc.

He also has a habit of doing this that is long-established. Goku wanders off and his friends and family don't see him or hear from him for years. He almost never makes social calls; he only really contacts people when it's relevant to his activities. This has been a pattern of his since the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai.

One can argue that he's never done that to his family, mind; just his friends. But one would be wrong, because Yardrat.

It's totally a Goku thing.

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#29237: Jan 7th 2018 at 3:16:41 PM

Kaio is not the only method. Dende is God, and like Uranai Baba can instantly travel to the afterlife. He can also telepathically contact Kaio himself.

Nobody needs Kaio to contact Goku, they still choose not to.

As for Goku not making visits to his friends: they don't visit him either.

Furthermore, when a bunch of people were dead post Saiyan arc, they only contacted people to coordinate wishes or bevause Kaio already had to contact Goku to warn them.

Gohan barely even visits Piccolo when both live on Earth.

It's not a Goku thing when everyone else acts the same way. The Yardrat instance was for practical reasons, and he contacted them to explain why he was staying.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#29238: Jan 7th 2018 at 3:36:53 PM

The thing about Goku and Chi-Chi's marriage is that you can go on about how both of them are awful and terrible spouses and parents, and by normal metrics they are. They don't seem to think that, though. Even through all the crazy bullshit, Goku and Chi-Chi still have a functional and healthy marriage by each other's standards. They still appreciate each other's company, their kids still love them, and while they may fight occasionally, they both tend to brush off any slights made to each other with no lasting damage done to their relationship. Goku even says that Chi-Chi's strong will and feisty spirit is one of the things he loves about her. Their relationship is weird, certainly, and if either of them was married to a normal person the normal person wouldn't be able to take it, but neither of them is normal. Goku and Chi-Chi's marriage may be hectic at times, but that never actually affects the quality of their relationship with each other or with their kids.

edited 7th Jan '18 3:39:48 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#29239: Jan 7th 2018 at 4:08:22 PM

A week ago you'd be right. They might objectively be bad, but it was Fridge Logic or ACI. As bad as they seem, the narrative treated their relationship as healthy.

... Except this whole convo was kicked off by Super going "nope, the bad dad punchline is actually canon."

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#29240: Jan 7th 2018 at 4:16:08 PM

That was a quote from the manga. The anime doesn't go nearly that far with it, neither having Goku say that he wasn't present for Goten and Gohan's births nor having Vegeta say that Goku is a terrible father.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#29241: Jan 7th 2018 at 4:22:31 PM

Anime or manga, I'm pretty sure Toriyama in an interview has said that he considers Goku a terrible father. Obviously you don't have to agree with that, but I'm pretty sure that is his opinion on the subject.

edited 7th Jan '18 4:26:38 PM by LSBK

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#29242: Jan 7th 2018 at 4:24:17 PM

Yeah, he's said that. I disagree with that being applicable to how Goku was portrayed in the manga and dislike Toriyana portraying him differently to get his original idea across more.

Especially when it's not going to have any pay-off.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#29243: Jan 7th 2018 at 5:28:52 PM

Toriyama is a pretty prime example of why you should never assume the creators of a work will always know what's best for it

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#29244: Jan 7th 2018 at 5:52:02 PM

...except his franchise has been massively successful before and after his initial departure from it?

Some of Dragonball's brilliance has come about from Toriyama's apparent flippancy.

edited 7th Jan '18 5:55:37 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#29245: Jan 7th 2018 at 5:58:11 PM

Franchise success =/= story quality

The latter is subjective, so you can't say the author would always kniw best

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#29246: Jan 7th 2018 at 6:11:39 PM

Like, I don't see why Goku has to be Father of the Year in order for the story to have quality anyway. Lots of people have said, "Goku is a bad father." Few have added, "and Dragon Ball is a bad series because of it."

Like, I feel like this is the same discussion as the one about whether Goku is a benevolent hero of the universe who always sticks his neck out to defend the innocent and devotes every waking moment to serving and protecting justice, or if he's an obsessed fight-junkie always looking for his next challenge who sometimes recklessly endangers the Earth in order to get his fix. Seeing him as the latter does not mean you hate Dragon Ball and everything it stands for.

Goku being kinda shitty is not a failure on the story's part. He's supposed to be kinda shitty. That's his character.

edited 7th Jan '18 6:15:46 PM by TobiasDrake

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#29247: Jan 7th 2018 at 6:15:46 PM

I don't think anyone has been arguing that Goku is father of the year. Just that many of things that people levy against him as reasons for calling him a bad father unfairly ignore context or how the series actually operates.

I mean, that's certainly been my point in all of this, and it's the same reason I react with skepticism with the attempts to paint Chi-chi as a great mother who actually has a point. In the context of the story, she actually doesn't have much of one, and that's the joke.

edited 7th Jan '18 6:19:03 PM by LSBK

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#29248: Jan 7th 2018 at 6:18:26 PM

He hasn't changed Goku's characterization. There's been a Broken Base for literally decades over fans who saw this aspect of Goku and other fans who denied it. Then Toriyama started writing again and one side was proven objectively right.

That Goku's written in Super in a way that inarguably reflects one of the two major interpretations of him doesn't mean Toriyama changed his character. It means one of the two readings was correct and the other turned out to not be.

edited 7th Jan '18 6:19:10 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#29249: Jan 7th 2018 at 6:20:29 PM

Changed characterization doesn't have to mean giving the character traits they didn't have before. It can also mean playing up or exaggerating things that were there before. Considering it's you, I feel like I shouldn't have to explain that.

Like, with your example about whether Goku is a benevolent hero or a fighting junkie who occasionally endangers the Earth. There's a false dichotomy there acting as if he couldn't and didn't have facets of both, and instead had to be completely one or the other.

edited 7th Jan '18 6:30:36 PM by LSBK

WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#29250: Jan 7th 2018 at 6:51:46 PM

I recall the otherworld tournament not being in the manga. Does that make the Grand Kai filler?


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