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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#29126: Jan 6th 2018 at 3:30:02 PM

[up][up]Goku's a role model for some things. Dedication to goals, mainly. Enjoying what you do. But parenthood? Not at all.

The more that I think about it, Chi Chi is practically Supermom, though.

Chi-Chi is totally supermom. Like I said before, I have no sympathy for her; she did this to herself. What I do have, however, is a lot of respect for her ability to raise this household despite her husband's contributions.

Like.

Imagine a guy who got shit-faced drunk, went up to a mafia don, and slapped him right in his goddamn face. Then, when everyone promptly tried to murder him for it, the guy whips out psychotic kung-fu skills and fights his way out with nary a scratch on him, only to show up at the bar tomorrow for another drink with his pals.

That's Chi-Chi's parenting skills. It's her own goddamn fault that she's in this mess but goddamn if she doesn't handle said mess with style.

edited 6th Jan '18 3:30:48 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#29127: Jan 6th 2018 at 3:30:43 PM

Chi Chi near singlehandedly raised her firstborn son to be brilliant at everything practical except social interaction. Kept up the house, fed, clothed, and taught a child. When her husband was around, she wasn't domineering, and he pretty much did what he wanted (including abandoning the family). Then by the time of her second child, she lightened up on academics and let him be more social, especially now that there's a kid his age to play with. With the second child, does pretty much everything a parent can do on her own. She just doesn't encourage her kids to fight strangers.

[up]Goku could have said no. It's not her fault they were young and dumb. It's not like she drugged him and went to a Vegas drive through chapel. He just said yes before he knew what he was saying yes to, and still mostly got to do what he wanted. He consented to marriage. Unfortunately she fell in love with an idiot.
The analogy is more "This high schooler applies for her dream job, a job that is hard for most adults. She gets the job but she has to do it with both arms tied behind her back. She still does a pretty good job."

edited 6th Jan '18 3:43:31 PM by wanderlustwarrior

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#29128: Jan 6th 2018 at 3:38:23 PM

The marriage is stupid and served no purpose in the story (outside of making Gohan).

Considering it has no effect on Goku (since he doesn't really develop as a character as Tobias pointed out, and I long ago realized), there really was zero point to doing it, and it's one reason why Toriyama's Throw It In Writing by the Seat of Your Pants style wasn't always the best way to do things.

At the very least, he could have more fully considered how he was going to use characters he introduced.

One Strip! One Strip!
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#29129: Jan 6th 2018 at 3:51:05 PM

[up]But making Gohan is a really damn important thing.

This song needs more love.
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#29130: Jan 6th 2018 at 3:52:58 PM

Yeah, growing up and having families is a thing most people do, story or no.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#29131: Jan 6th 2018 at 3:57:21 PM

I think Chi-Chi's real problem is that she's not Genre Savvy. Most of what she does is totally logical in a real world sense but Dragonball is... well... very different.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#29132: Jan 6th 2018 at 4:13:14 PM

If she was, she would just ask Goku to participate in some martial arts tournaments.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#29133: Jan 6th 2018 at 4:26:27 PM

There hasn't been a tournament for a while though...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#29134: Jan 6th 2018 at 4:29:59 PM

Goku could have said no. It's not her fault they were young and dumb. It's not like she drugged him and went to a Vegas drive through chapel. He just said yes before he knew what he was saying yes to, and still mostly got to do what he wanted. He consented to marriage. Unfortunately she fell in love with an idiot.

The analogy is more "This high schooler applies for her dream job, a job that is hard for most adults. She gets the job but she has to do it with both arms tied behind her back. She still does a pretty good job."

Goku's ability to consent to marriage is extremely questionable given that Krillin had to explain what marriage was to him years after he agreed to marry Chi-Chi. Goku has no actual understanding of the responsibilities that this relationship placed on him. He's a shitty husband and father, but it makes sense that he would be because so far as he comprehends, there's no functional difference between Chi-Chi, Gohan, or Krillin.

Chi-Chi has no such mitigating factors. She is not a brain-damaged Tarzan and has never been depicted as anything but a person with fully functioning cognitive skills. One day, when she was a child, Goku sexually harassed her. In response to this, she demanded an engagement which she got because Goku had no idea what he was agreeing to.

Then he left and never came back for six years, so she went out and hunted him down. She dragged him kicking and screaming confused and bleating into the relationship he had no idea he'd even agreed to, then promptly spent the rest of their relationship angry at him for his persistent failures in living up to his end of a social contract he still, to this day, doesn't even know he signed.

Goku's a shitty husband and father, but their marriage is entirely Chi-Chi's fault.

edited 6th Jan '18 4:30:22 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#29135: Jan 6th 2018 at 4:32:53 PM

Goku had no capability to ask anyone what he was agreeing to. He had to be told what to do, as he's not an independently functioning adult (or child).

edited 6th Jan '18 4:33:46 PM by wanderlustwarrior

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#29136: Jan 6th 2018 at 4:33:51 PM

He did ask Krillin. Krillin explained to Goku that being married means Chi-Chi will live in his house.

So, by that measure, Goku has done everything that's been asked of him.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#29137: Jan 6th 2018 at 4:35:01 PM

So are we just turning Chi-chi into a martyr now? I'm only half-joking, by the way.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#29138: Jan 6th 2018 at 4:36:21 PM

I mean, half of the people here want to canonise her and the other half want to burn her as a heretic... so...

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#29139: Jan 6th 2018 at 4:37:15 PM

Kriller did a terrible job explaining what marriage is...

He already knew Karrot was dense, so using the simple terms was not good...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#29140: Jan 6th 2018 at 4:37:36 PM

[up][up]I mean, I don't agree with all the hate Chi-chi gets, but I also don't agree that she's somehow free of any responsibility for her life not turning out the way she wanted.

edited 6th Jan '18 4:38:00 PM by LSBK

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#29141: Jan 6th 2018 at 4:44:20 PM

That shit explanation is Krillin's fault then.

Chi-Chi has faults, and I'm not trying to martyr her. She was young and immature and it happens that her first partner and only was an idiot, but that doesn't mean she deserves to be penalized for the rest of her life with near-single motherhood and a husband who spends all day at the gym, doesn't mature, but at least he doesn't antagonize people. I don't want to be all "Fuck you for desperately wanting to have a family.", I'm saying it's not all on her. Some of it's on him.

edited 6th Jan '18 4:44:56 PM by wanderlustwarrior

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#29142: Jan 6th 2018 at 4:44:43 PM

[up][up] I still don't understand why she hasn't divorced him. She has the grounds, certainly.

edited 6th Jan '18 4:45:08 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#29143: Jan 6th 2018 at 4:46:36 PM

[up][up]I would say you arguing against something no one said, but Tobias did say that it was her fault. So instead I'll say that it honestly comes off like you're taking this entire discussion too personally.

[up]Because she loves him? It might not make any sense, but a lot of relationships in this story really don't have proper build up or reason to last. They just do, and sometimes you get nice moments out of it.

edited 6th Jan '18 4:47:46 PM by LSBK

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#29144: Jan 6th 2018 at 4:47:17 PM

You can blame the Anime and the English dub for Chi-Chi's terrible reputation, because she's far less benign in the Manga...because she appears less. And the English dub anime is where everyone's perception of her come from.

I have no positive or negative feelings towards Chi-chi, because she's not meant to be taken seriously and none of the characters take her seriously either. And even despite her problems with Goku's less than stellar parenting and husbanding skills, its not like she's miserable with him either.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#29145: Jan 6th 2018 at 4:47:41 PM

[up][up][up]Because single motherhood is really hard and she has hope that maybe one day he'll care to do better? I mean, in real life people have reasons for not automatically actively abusive partners.

Even if Goku didn't know what he was consenting to at the start, it has been years and he has had chances to learn and still takes advantage. Anywhere else he'd be a deadbeat dad, he just happens to be the protagonist of a shonen manga. So yeah, the fact that a real world person absolves him of guilt and puts it all on her seems fucked up to me.

edited 6th Jan '18 4:50:35 PM by wanderlustwarrior

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#29146: Jan 6th 2018 at 4:48:52 PM

I also think people should stop projecting things onto Chi-chi she has never expressed, and probably isn't meant to represent.

Like, I think Wander has been doing that throughout this entire conversation.

edited 6th Jan '18 4:50:42 PM by LSBK

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#29147: Jan 6th 2018 at 4:50:03 PM

[up][up][up]Why is this partially the dub's fault?

edited 6th Jan '18 4:50:31 PM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#29148: Jan 6th 2018 at 4:51:29 PM

Chi-Chi's become a real snob recently. Remember that time where she effectively kidnaps Pan away from her dad & grandad Satan & how she wants to force her ideas on how to raise Pan while disrespecting her paternal parental figures?

Which is sad on how Super resets her character back to square one considering how she lightens up after the Cell Saga & seems to be in a better place when Goku comes back for real.

edited 6th Jan '18 4:54:14 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#29149: Jan 6th 2018 at 4:55:54 PM

Super resets a lot of characters.

And the ones it doesn't reset were already kinda jerks anyway.

And then there's Super Goku, who Toriyama felt needed to be worse because that's how he's supposed to be (something he himself failed to convey).

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#29150: Jan 6th 2018 at 5:04:35 PM

I won't give Chi-chi credit for Gohan given that she isn't seen doing a single positive thing for him. Gohan turned out okay in spite of Chi-Chi being his mother.


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