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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#28951: Dec 27th 2017 at 9:33:53 AM

Goku and Gohan's relationship improving just set Gohan up to be blindsided by Goku sending him off to fight Cell and giving Cell a Senzu; one of his biggest bad father moments, and one which TFS pulled no punches in calling him out on.

They even subverted Goku's dramatic defense of his actions by punctuating it with Cell beating the bloody hell out of Gohan's face. Between Goku and Piccolo, it's pretty clear whose side TFS expects you to be on in that argument.

Regarding Icarus: Icarus dies in every movie he appears in. Someone on the team really has an axe to grind on that one.

edited 27th Dec '17 9:34:49 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Fedetropes Call me Blast, not Fedetropes from Doomed universe Since: Dec, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Call me Blast, not Fedetropes
#28952: Dec 27th 2017 at 11:23:51 AM

Actually there is a "bad father goku" joke in the canadian subtitles.

¡PONLE QUE DIGA!:"¡HUMONGOSAURIO HASTA LA MUERTE!"
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#28953: Dec 27th 2017 at 11:53:08 AM

Which are non-canon fan-written jokes.

Gohan has long-since evolved from "My dad is a rather shit-person for consciously and repeatedly avoiding responsibility" to "My dad believes in me and isn't outright malicious, but he's also selfish and an idiot for everything except fighting, which is the main way I get to spend time with him. Also, worst case scenario I've still got Mr. Piccolo and Krillin as responsible adults, and my mom is challenging, but not an idiot."

Trunks' return and the Cell (and Androids) Saga have really come a long way. Compare Gohan of the Bad Future to Gohan after walking out of the HTC. Or the Super 13 special.

I can see how the trigger might not be 16 because they don't have a strong connection and Gohan isn't Krillin, but if it were really "bad dad Goku" that would neither mesh with the story they've been telling (including how Gohan went SS 1), nor the DBZ story.
Hmm. So maybe 16 saying "Cell killed Icarus and Toriyama" might work.

edited 27th Dec '17 11:54:00 AM by wanderlustwarrior

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#28954: Dec 27th 2017 at 11:56:45 AM

I mean, it very easily could. Some good time with Goku shouldn't entirely change Gohan's impression of Goku, and their "bonding" probably has more to do so that this Goku can actually understand the ramifications of why sending Gohan in this situation was wrong (well, he was right about Gohan being the only one who could do it, but wrong to blindside him like he did).

I really don't think they've changed it up as much as you seem to to think they have. Certainly not enough that Gohan's frustrations towards Goku bubbling over would feel out of place. It might not happen...but it still very easily could.

edited 27th Dec '17 11:58:40 AM by LSBK

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#28955: Dec 27th 2017 at 12:26:38 PM

I think they've come a long way, and if Gohan's rage is still mostly dad-based at the moment that SS 2 happens, that seems sorely out of place. His dad believes in him, and they'll have had the Cell Jrs and Android 16's death to worry about. Doesn't make a ton of sense to go "oh yeah, I still hate my dad, enough to be angrier and more violent towards someone else than I've ever been in my life." Especially since they've already come from:
Gohan raging at Ginyu-in-Goku, or annoyed that Goku wouldn't want to come home after Frieza, or getting offended that Future Trunks said the two are similar in any way, to:
Gohan happily held on his dad's shoulders, or his dad planning him a birthday party, or them both admitting the dream with Cell as Goku, or Gohan not getting angry at the suggestion of a gi like Goku's, but respectfully turning it down for one like Piccolo's.

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#28956: Dec 27th 2017 at 12:31:48 PM

[up] To wit: Gohan going Super Saiyan is so incredibly obviously ripe for "Goku's a bad parent" leading to his power boost that if they were going to play that one, that was the time to do it.

And yet, they didn't. You might say that they're trying to Bait the Dog, but if they didn't play that card there means it'll be really out of place if they play it when it's less applicable.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#28957: Dec 27th 2017 at 12:33:26 PM

They sort of did. Gohan's motivation to become a Super Saiyan was the revelation that Goku's beam was absolutely going to kill him and there was nobody to save him this time.

He transformed out of desperation upon realizing that Goku's bad parenting would literally kill him if he didn't.

Also, the fact that he didn't throw a snit-fit about it doesn't change the fact that upon being given the chance to wear a gi like Goku's, he promptly decided he wanted Piccolo's look instead. That's not a fashion choice; a gi is a symbol of one's school of martial discipline. Rejecting Goku's gi and taking Piccolo's is a statement that Gohan is a student of Piccolo and not one of Goku.

Being like, "Thanks for the training, but you aren't my master and I don't want to wear your emblem," is super insulting.

edited 27th Dec '17 12:37:21 PM by TobiasDrake

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Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
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#28958: Dec 27th 2017 at 12:36:27 PM

Pretty much. I think even a lot of people who get triggered by the "Piccolo is a better dad than Goku" jokes would still agree that Gohan is at least more of Piccolo's student than Goku's.

Since Goku giving Cell a senzu bean is easily the worst he gets as a father there was a reason it came up there, at least.

The other moments have mostly been exaggerating Goku's blase attitude towards Gohan participating in these battles into "doesn't really super care about his son's welfare" for comedy purposes.

edited 27th Dec '17 12:37:47 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#28959: Dec 27th 2017 at 12:41:54 PM

Calling it a "super insult" seems like a pretty big exaggeration. It happened in the actual story and I'm sure it wasn't meant to be taken that way either. I've never really gotten why it's so hard for some people to get that you can respect more than one person at a time, and want to show it in different ways, at a time.

Also, "triggered"?

edited 27th Dec '17 2:05:20 PM by LSBK

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#28960: Dec 27th 2017 at 1:16:33 PM

[up][up][up] Gohan's rage is entirely inwardly focused. I happened to have just rewatched this episode an hour ago and while it would make perfect sense for him to be mad at Goku for firing a blast that could kill him, everything about Gohan's epiphany is about how he's been relying on others. At most, you could stretch it into a dig at Goku because Gohan realizes he can't rely on him, but literally none of his anger is directed at Goku in that scene.

edited 27th Dec '17 1:32:55 PM by Larkmarn

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#28961: Dec 27th 2017 at 1:26:54 PM

[up]Agreed, Hell, Goku even warns Gohan ahead of time "YOU NEED TO DODGE", and then revitalizes Piccolo's old training method.

[up][up]agreed. Gohan wasn't being an overtly disrespectful student, he was calmly agreeing with both Goku and Piccolo that while Gohan does have his heritage and was happy to spend time with dad for once, Piccolo is the most nurturing figure in his life and he doesn't want to forget that.
He's jaded and experienced, but he's still a kid who has friends and heroes he looks up to outside of his family.

LSBK: as for "triggered", a brief history of that term, spelled out because it has an important message behind it:
In the post-World War world, as psychology was taking off, US soldiers were coming back with what would come to be known as Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), which can be dangerously and easily prompted by factors, such as fireworks explosion sounds, which remind them of their experience. As PTSD became better understood, it was expanded to include other causes of trauma, such as violent sexual imagery reminding a woman of having previously been sexually assaulted, or a person going near an area they were almost killed in as a child.
"Triggers" are those cues that could prompt memories of, or reliving, the traumatic experience. "Trigger/Content warnings" are advisories that someone who has experienced such a thing may face a reminder of that deadly trauma...
And in the asshole era of the internet, many people, occasionally myself included, but especially people who don't feel like emphasizing with or caring that others have experienced trauma, use "trigger" to deride anyone for their negative response to a subject.
"Triggered" has gone from "you've experienced something that has drastically changed you for life" to "haha, you're responding to something you don't like!"

edited 27th Dec '17 1:38:11 PM by wanderlustwarrior

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#28962: Dec 27th 2017 at 1:31:04 PM

Just look at that face. It's adorable. Calling it a "super insult" seems like a pretty big exaggeration. It happened in the actual story and I'm sure it wasn't meant to be taken that way either. I've never really gotten why it's so hard for some people to get that you can respect more than one person at a time, and what to show it in different ways, at a time.

Yeah, in canon, Gohan's decision to want to wear Piccolo's gi was because Piccolo was his first master.

It's really no different than how Goku still wears the Turtle Hermit gi even though he's long since move past training under Master Roshi.

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#28963: Dec 27th 2017 at 1:32:10 PM

Goku telling Gohan to fight Cell and then being called out for it (even in the original) always fell kind of flat for me because he was right. It just took longer than he thought.

This song needs more love.
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#28964: Dec 27th 2017 at 1:39:42 PM

[up][up]In modern day Super, whose symbols does he currently wear? I know he and Vegeta sport the Whis/Beerus symbol on the front of their Saiyan/Frieza Armor and Turtle Gi respectively, but does he still have the King Kai symbol on the back? I remember after completing King Kai's training, he changed one of the two Turtle symbols to King Kai's.
Also, when Piccolo first used the Clothes Beam on unconscious!Gohan, he gave him the Turtle Gi like his dad's, but consciously replaced the symbol with his own Demon symbol.

One thing I liked about Gohan's Saiyaman (helmet), Saiyaman (wrap & sunglasses), and jet black suit attires was that it was him expressing his own style, not influenced by Turtle, Saiyan, or Demon styles.

[up]His main fault lies in not telling Gohan ahead of time that the kid may get thrown into combat. I don't see how "You're ready and I believe in you, and that you're better than me." is impossible to say in an entire week. He didn't have to blindside the kid.

edited 27th Dec '17 1:45:09 PM by wanderlustwarrior

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
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#28965: Dec 27th 2017 at 2:06:44 PM

@Sigilbreaker

Hey can you please not use the word "triggered" in that connotation?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#28966: Dec 27th 2017 at 2:08:17 PM

I suppose I just have a thing with people treating relationships as if they're zero-sum games and acting as if any show of affection or respect towards one automatically detracts from another. Dragon Ball is probably the first time I really noticed people doing it, but it's not the only thing where that annoys me.

I could also go into how I think people tend to exaggerate how much time and influence Piccolo actually has compared to Goku, but that's a whole other thing, that I really don't want to start up again.

edited 27th Dec '17 2:09:28 PM by LSBK

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#28967: Dec 27th 2017 at 2:28:05 PM

It's really no different than how Goku still wears the Turtle Hermit gi even though he's long since move past training under Master Roshi.

He doesn't, actually.

He still wears an orange gi, but he changes out the emblem on it after taking on Kaio-sama as a master, replacing Kame-sennin with Kaio-sama. He later updates the symbol to be the Son family's emblem, reflecting that he is no longer a student and has become a master in his own right.

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#28968: Dec 27th 2017 at 2:30:38 PM

The first gi he got after training with King Kai had both King Kai's own mark and the Turtle School's. After that, I don't know.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#28969: Dec 27th 2017 at 2:35:22 PM

Technically, the Saiyaman outfit isn't Gohan's own style, it was designed by Bulma. Closest Gohan has to a style all his own is the green tracksuit.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
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#28970: Dec 27th 2017 at 2:39:35 PM

Goku changes symbols a lot, and seems to vacillate between: 1. his most recent master, 2. Kame (probably because Roshi was his first , and 3. his name.

He's had a couple others in the past that don't come up a lot, namely the Kami symbol (because Kami is A. no longer a thing and B. didn't really teach him anything) and the Kai symbol (for King Kai, which I think he only wore for the Nappa/Vegeta fight).

The amount of influence Goku had vs. the amount Piccolo had on Goku as a fighter is a bit annoying for me. I would prefer if Gohan still kept some moves from Piccolo in his toolkit to differentiate him from his dad but the Masenko isn't really that great a move either and I don't think he's used it since he learnt the Kamehameha. Now the Special Beam Cannon, I'm annoyed Piccolo never taught him that but it might be Namek only.

edited 27th Dec '17 2:42:13 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#28971: Dec 27th 2017 at 2:39:38 PM

It's still the Turtle School Gi, just with different emblems. Like getting a custom Chicago Bulls jersey, and changing out Michael Jordan's number 23 as the years go by with Scottie Pippen's 33, Tyson Chandler's 3, Derrick Rose's 1, going numberless, then putting your own favorite number on.

[up][up]Groooooooooooss.

edited 27th Dec '17 2:41:25 PM by wanderlustwarrior

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#28972: Dec 27th 2017 at 2:43:28 PM

I unironically want Gohan to wear those blue Kai robes with the weird shoulderpads again. evil grin

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#28973: Dec 27th 2017 at 2:49:35 PM

The special beam cannon is a terrible technique anyway.

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#28974: Dec 27th 2017 at 2:53:13 PM

[up][up]Only if Goku gets to wear the Yardrat clothing again.
I don't see why Goku doesn't IT his friends to Yardrat so more of them can learn IT... or teach it himself.

...also... if Frieza didn't come back, would Goku have just stayed on Yardrat to train more? Dick.

edited 27th Dec '17 2:54:53 PM by wanderlustwarrior

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#28975: Dec 27th 2017 at 2:55:26 PM

[up][up]It killed a man who was five times as powerful as the guy who threw it. That's like Goku successfully killing Frieza at Full Power without ever becoming a Super Saiyan.

edited 27th Dec '17 2:55:45 PM by TobiasDrake

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