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xanderiskander Since: Mar, 2012
#28726: Oct 14th 2017 at 4:31:07 PM

Krillin and Roshi seemed to get results in the tournament more because of clever tactics than power levels. The rest who aren't Goku, and Vegeta seem to be doing well more because of teaming up against their opponents than straight up power also.

Masako in his videos seems to think that's the point, and that the saiyains will need to learn to work together with the rest of their team, and gang up on Jiren to actually beat him.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#28727: Oct 14th 2017 at 4:36:25 PM

I really hope not because that's never how Dragon Ball has ever worked.

I'll accept Goku and Vegeta working together and maybe with Gohan but nothing more.

edited 14th Oct '17 4:36:51 PM by Zelenal

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KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#28728: Oct 14th 2017 at 4:39:17 PM

What, not only can nobody else contribute to big fights but the Saiyans, but they shouldn't even try?

edited 14th Oct '17 4:45:00 PM by KarkatTheDalek

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#28729: Oct 14th 2017 at 4:43:19 PM

There's already been some regression because Goku has been willing to fight with other people when the stakes are higher than just his own amusement before.

Although, he said before the tournament started that he's fine fighting with Gohan.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#28730: Oct 14th 2017 at 5:15:20 PM

I really hope not because that's never how Dragon Ball has ever worked.

A group effort brought down Vegeta.

Also, Majin Buu.

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LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#28733: Oct 14th 2017 at 5:38:45 PM

Hell Frieza took several opponents each form to beat, even if the Final Form was 95% Goku.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#28734: Oct 14th 2017 at 5:38:51 PM

And Cell on a technicality.

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Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#28735: Oct 14th 2017 at 5:44:16 PM

Pure Boo was only brought down by a group effort because Vegeta insisted on it. Once Earth was brought back and everyone was revived, Gotenks or Gohan could have easily curbed stomped Boo with no effort.

Ginyu is technically an example but also not really. Multiple people were only needed because of the Body Change, not because of Ginyu's raw power. It's also worth noting that Vegeta did most of the work in that fight after Ginyu and Goku switched bodies.

While Vegeta is an example, the others were only able to contribute after Vegeta had lost a majority of his ki fighting Goku and, even then, most of the work was done by Goku.

Raditz is the only straightforward example of what's being asked for here. It's the only time in the entire series where two fighters who are weaker than their opponent team up to defeat someone more powerful (and, even then, it was only possible because Piccolo had an attack that had a higher battle power than Raditz). Even in the case of Vegeta, most of the damage was done by Goku when he had a higher battle power than Vegeta thanks to the Kaiouken.

This is how Dragon Ball has always worked. The only way you can defeat your enemy is by being stronger than them or having an attack that's stronger than them. You could throw the entirety of Universe 7— Hell, the entirety of all the universes in the ToP at Jiren and, so long as neither of those conditions are met, Jiren would win.

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KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#28736: Oct 14th 2017 at 5:46:37 PM

And it must be like that?

Sounds like a shackle to me.

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Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#28737: Oct 14th 2017 at 5:47:04 PM

If you want it to stop being Dragon Ball then go right ahead.

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xanderiskander Since: Mar, 2012
#28738: Oct 14th 2017 at 5:52:27 PM

Masako's theory in one of his Jiren videos IIRC was that Jiren has a unique ability that allows him to simply make himself as strong as he needs to be to beat an opponent. One of the things he pointed to as evidence was that none of his training we've seen has been physical. It's all been meditation. So his conclusion was that the strategy to beat him is if one really strong person can't match him, maybe you need a bunch of warriors to overwhelm him.

edited 14th Oct '17 5:54:22 PM by xanderiskander

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#28739: Oct 14th 2017 at 5:55:04 PM

[up][up] I mean, you're the one who's insisting that there can be no variation here. I fail to see how mixing things up for this one fight would suddenly mean that it's no longer Dragon Ball.

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TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#28740: Oct 14th 2017 at 6:03:39 PM

[up] No, every fight in Dragon Ball needs to be a matter of who has the higher power level. Teamwork? Tactics? Skill? Perseverance? Laaaaaame.

edited 14th Oct '17 6:05:16 PM by TyeDyeWildebeest

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FergardStratoavis A Fluff Ringer from Bellveins (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: A gay little love melody
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#28741: Oct 14th 2017 at 6:04:47 PM

While mixing things up would be neat, there's been plenty of occasions for that already, and there's yet to be a real team effort at play since Raditz. If you're not a Saiyan, your role is to be a designated punching bag (see Z Fighters v. Nappa).

TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#28742: Oct 14th 2017 at 6:07:24 PM

[up] I wouldn't say that. In the Tournament of Power arc we've seen a lot of eliminations that were accomplished by two or more teammates working together (Jium, Shosa, The Preecho, the Trio de Dangers, and nearly half the Pride Troopers, to name a few).

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#28743: Oct 14th 2017 at 8:04:42 PM

I'm not counting Frieza because the fight was simply unwinnable up until Goku became a Super Saiyan. Even after he arrived, everything they did was futile. Teamwork didn't beat Frieza, it just kept Frieza entertained long enough for the eleventh hour Deus ex Machina to appear.

That said, it's simply untrue that Goku's Kaioken did the brunt of the damage to Vegeta. It pissed him off enough to transform into the Oozaru, but that's it.

  • Vegeta losing the Oozaru was because of Yajirobe.
  • Vegeta getting blasted down into a manageable state was by the Genki-Dama created by Goku, delivered by Krillin, and driven home by Gohan.
  • Even then, Vegeta was still powerful enough to kill everyone but for Gohan's Oozaru state.

Goku may have been the strongest player on the field but it was absolutely a team effort.

And sure, you can say that Ultimate Gohan could have come and ganked Pure Buu but that's not what happened. Frieza could have come and ganked Vegeta too. Babidi could have shown up and mind-controlled Raditz before anyone got a crack at him. We aren't talking about whether or not more powerful fighters than the villain existed; we are talking about whether the show has ever depicted team efforts as being effective at neutralizing a villain.

And while there were other ways that the Buu fight could have happened, the way it did happen was by a team effort. That is how Dragon Ball did it, and thus you cannot say that Dragon Ball would do it any other way.

edited 14th Oct '17 8:06:00 PM by TobiasDrake

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wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#28744: Oct 14th 2017 at 8:31:23 PM

In Super, Freeza actually succeeds in blowing up Earth and killing almost everyone because Goku and Vegeta fought with too much blind honor. Fortunately Whis had the power to rewind time.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#28745: Oct 14th 2017 at 8:49:47 PM

You know, having the fight be won by a team effort after so much time of fights being mostly won by one dude (though as Tobias pointed out, there have been exceptions) would...actually be something a lot of people wouldn't expect.

If Toriyama really wants to subvert our expectations as he's so hard wired to do, he should try that.

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Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#28746: Oct 14th 2017 at 10:58:55 PM

So, uh, can you take this to the main DB thread? I left that one for a reason, namely that Super is garbage and I don't even want to hear about it.

IceAnt573 Forever not amused. Since: May, 2015
Forever not amused.
#28747: Oct 14th 2017 at 11:27:50 PM

[up]While I disagree with you on that front, I do think Super content is less related to DBZ Abridged.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#28748: Oct 14th 2017 at 11:32:50 PM

"Stop talking about things I don't like in a thread related to the subject"

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Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#28749: Oct 15th 2017 at 1:15:44 AM

[up]I have to second this. Not wanting Super to be discussed because it's not related to DBZA is fine and valid, not wanting it discussed because you don't like it is not okay and not how discussion forums work.

So yeah, let's keep the Super discussion in this thread to when it's related to what Abridged is doing.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#28750: Oct 15th 2017 at 6:11:45 AM

also tobias, you forgot that vegeta was hurt when gohan become a oozaru and star kicking the living shit of Vegetas ass.

"Pure Boo was only brought down by a group effort because Vegeta insisted on it. Once Earth was brought back and everyone was revived, Gotenks or Gohan could have easily curbed stomped Boo with no effort. "

Nonense, if I remenber right, vegeto notes that boo have waaaaay more power he display, fat boo is actually a downfrade of pure boo.

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