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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#28701: Oct 13th 2017 at 4:32:03 PM

To be fair, I don't think Piccolo and 17 (or at least Piccolo) are supposed to be on the same level as Blue. Their gains are ridiculous and barely justified, but they aren't the same ridiculousness of Blue. Unless I missed something, which I could have.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#28702: Oct 13th 2017 at 4:33:00 PM

I've been wondering actually, have you kept up with Dragon Ball Super Tobias? No one sees you in the general Dragon Ball thread anymore and everyone's up to date on it.

edited 13th Oct '17 4:33:11 PM by VeryMelon

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#28703: Oct 13th 2017 at 4:48:02 PM

17 fought equally against Super Saiyan Blue after level grinding for 10 years, but I don't remember any indication Piccolo is on that level. Just a nebulous "stronger than he used to be".

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#28704: Oct 13th 2017 at 6:25:21 PM

I haven't. It's on my list of things to catch up on.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#28705: Oct 13th 2017 at 9:36:36 PM

[up][up] It's difficult to tell that sort of thing in Super due to how Goku is constantly sandbagging with basically everyone, and it became clear pretty soon after Blue was introduced that just because he and Vegeta are using it, that didn't mean they were even marginally using a decent extent of its power.

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#28706: Oct 14th 2017 at 4:15:08 AM

Toei is not very good at power scaling; for Super, wait for the manga if you want a better sense of that (and, 17 hasn't been reintroduced in that one yet). For the record, Blue remains a big deal there, but Beerus is still leaps and bounds ahead, and the non-God forms seem to remain around the same ballpark as their Buu saga equivalents (and I'm quite okay with that). We still have to see how Freeza would be handled there, tho.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#28707: Oct 14th 2017 at 5:00:31 AM

Toei is not very good at power scaling; for Super, wait for the manga if you want a better sense of that (and, 17 hasn't been reintroduced in that one yet). For the record, Blue remains a big deal there,

It's also given a ridiculous limitation where it can only be used once at full power. And then it has a "Master Form" that lets Goku keep up with Perfect Zamasu.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#28708: Oct 14th 2017 at 5:09:57 AM

The mange version of Merged Zamasu is vastly weaker than the anime version, and in all honestly that's not narratively different from:

Anyway.

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#28709: Oct 14th 2017 at 8:44:44 AM

Remember that Piccolo trained from "somewhat weaker than base Freeza fight Saiyans" to "somewhat weaker than Android saga Super Saiyans" in those 3 years.

If there is a character who can bullshit his way into getting into Goku tier, it is Piccolo, as he has already done that before. Freeza, Cell and Buu would also work I guess.

No seriously, gimme God Ki Piccolo. And in the process, a transformation for Xenoverse that doesn't involve becoming gigantic.

Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#28710: Oct 14th 2017 at 8:47:02 AM

Super Kami Piccolo

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#28711: Oct 14th 2017 at 10:52:52 AM

I've said it before and I'll say it again: it's part of the core premise of Dragon Ball that people can gain amazing amounts of power just by working out really hard. Krillin went from being unable to push a man-sized boulder when he was first introduced to beating up guys who could blow up the moon during the Saiyan Saga, all without any special powerups. If he keeps training and continues to improve at the same rate, why shouldn't he or any of the other Z Fighters reach the level of a Super Saiyan?

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#28712: Oct 14th 2017 at 10:58:47 AM

Because they aren't meant to.

Saiyans are just supposed to have an incredible amount of power (though few reach it).

If Toriyama had wanted the humans to keep up with Goku, he wouldn't have had Goku completely outstripping them from the get go, or have them utterly fail to do anything to a character who Goku then defeats with utter ease.

Humans can be strong, it's just that their strength pales in comparison to how powerful everyone else can become.

One Strip! One Strip!
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#28713: Oct 14th 2017 at 11:04:04 AM

Why do Saiyans have so many transformations anyway? Like, Super Saiyan was such a rare thing that one hadn't popped up in one thousand years. And now it turns out that was just the bottom of the barrel form.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#28714: Oct 14th 2017 at 11:07:57 AM

Well, it's mostly because after achieving it, they realized there was still more they could do with it, and worked at that.

The last Super Saiyan wtfpwned himself and his entire planet before he got a chance to find this out (since it's implied he achieved it while in the uncontrollable Oozaru state, and I'm always gonna be mad at Toriyama for getting rid of tails and never letting us see something like that).

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#28715: Oct 14th 2017 at 11:08:11 AM

If he keeps training and continues to improve at the same rate, why shouldn't he or any of the other Z Fighters reach the level of a Super Saiyan?

Because they train in much shittier ways, and frankly don't have the same amount of potential, talent, or ingenuity as the Saiyans.

Edit: Acknowledging that different people have different limits and potential isn't the same thing as Hard Work Hardly Works.

edited 14th Oct '17 11:11:46 AM by LSBK

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#28716: Oct 14th 2017 at 11:14:55 AM

Saiyans have 3 transformations so far. Great Ape, Super Saiyan, and Super Saiyan God (and that is more of a ritual than a biological transformation). Anything else is just stacking those up (Super Saiyan 2 is going Super Saiyan as a Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan Blue, well, its true name is Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan...)

Humans don't transform, but Krillin on Namek was already stronger than any Saiyan individual but those of legends and the 3 living ones. And a year of training was enough to get every of them but Chaotzu to average Saiyan warrior power...

Krillin, Tien and Yamcha are scarily strong. They are big fish, but they have to share a pond with a giant green squid and two evergrowing blue whales.

Codafett Knows-Many-Things Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Waiting for you *wink*
Knows-Many-Things
#28717: Oct 14th 2017 at 11:19:55 AM

TFS needs to go ahead and wrap up the Cell Games as soon as they possibly can. Between legal pressure and whatever schedule conflicts they're suffering the end is near. And obviously they shouldn't even bother touching the Buu Saga.

Just Having Fun
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#28718: Oct 14th 2017 at 11:20:14 AM

[up][up][up] See, I don't buy the idea that anyone in Dragon Ball has some sort of physical limit on how strong they can become. Once ordinary people train themselves to the point where they're stronger than the planet they're standing on, that ship has sailed.

edited 14th Oct '17 11:20:36 AM by RavenWilder

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#28719: Oct 14th 2017 at 11:23:33 AM

[up]I mean, you can feel that way, but the show has never shown that.

Goku has always quickly outpaced anyone who happens to be stronger or equal to him when they meet him. He works hard, sure, but so did other people. He always bore stronger results. Vegeta is the same, for the most part. And Gohan, Goten, and Trunks are all noted to have insane amounts of potential, more so than their fathers.

They are different, and the show has always treated them as such.

edited 14th Oct '17 11:24:40 AM by LSBK

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#28720: Oct 14th 2017 at 11:24:59 AM

No one would have a problem with humans getting stronger if it was done using methods that were observable and better than anything the humans had access to previously. Context for situations like this matter, and you can't ignore it without criticism.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#28721: Oct 14th 2017 at 11:25:47 AM

[up][up][up][up]

They are though? As soon as they possibly can will be sometime next year.

edited 14th Oct '17 11:26:10 AM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#28722: Oct 14th 2017 at 11:29:21 AM

[up][up][up] Well, yeah, he's the main character in a Shōnen Fighting Series, that's what they do. Gohan managed to stay at or even a little above Goku's level because Toriyama wanted to hand main character status over to Gohan (though he never quite pulled the trigger on it), and Vegeta stayed close to but slightly weaker than Goku because he's defined by being Goku's rival and has Popularity Power on his side. If Vegeta suddenly became unpopular, I'm sure you'd find all the other characters leaving him in the dust.

edited 14th Oct '17 11:30:30 AM by RavenWilder

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#28723: Oct 14th 2017 at 11:42:18 AM

No one would have a problem with humans getting stronger if it was done using methods that were observable and better than anything the humans had access to previously. Context for situations like this matter, and you can't ignore it without criticism.

And the thing is, there are ways for them to really get stronger, even if they can't be as powerful as Piccolo and the Saiyans.

There's still King Kai's full training, and learning the Kaioken (if at all possible); Old Kai's potential Unlock (for everyone but Krillin, who arguably already had his potential unlocked), and...well, there's android conversion, but only Gero knew how to do it, and they'd likely see that as cheating anyway.

One Strip! One Strip!
Zarastro Since: Sep, 2010
#28724: Oct 14th 2017 at 2:11:00 PM

I always assumed that the only true limit in the DBZ Verse was your own mortality and possibly old age weakening yourself. Of course Saiyans are not affected by the latter but humans probably are (I think it was stated in the manga that Roshi had lost some of his former strength, before Toriyama gave him a secret power level of 10k or something).

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#28725: Oct 14th 2017 at 3:30:20 PM

Right... Roshi made more of a difference in the current tournament than Krillin. That was infuriating.


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