I haven't. It's on my list of things to catch up on.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.![]()
It's difficult to tell that sort of thing in Super due to how Goku is constantly sandbagging with basically everyone, and it became clear pretty soon after Blue was introduced that just because he and Vegeta are using it, that didn't mean they were even marginally using a decent extent of its power.
Toei is not very good at power scaling; for Super, wait for the manga if you want a better sense of that (and, 17 hasn't been reintroduced in that one yet). For the record, Blue remains a big deal there, but Beerus is still leaps and bounds ahead, and the non-God forms seem to remain around the same ballpark as their Buu saga equivalents (and I'm quite okay with that). We still have to see how Freeza would be handled there, tho.
It's also given a ridiculous limitation where it can only be used once at full power. And then it has a "Master Form" that lets Goku keep up with Perfect Zamasu.
I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!Remember that Piccolo trained from "somewhat weaker than base Freeza fight Saiyans" to "somewhat weaker than Android saga Super Saiyans" in those 3 years.
If there is a character who can bullshit his way into getting into Goku tier, it is Piccolo, as he has already done that before. Freeza, Cell and Buu would also work I guess.
No seriously, gimme God Ki Piccolo. And in the process, a transformation for Xenoverse that doesn't involve becoming gigantic.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: it's part of the core premise of Dragon Ball that people can gain amazing amounts of power just by working out really hard. Krillin went from being unable to push a man-sized boulder when he was first introduced to beating up guys who could blow up the moon during the Saiyan Saga, all without any special powerups. If he keeps training and continues to improve at the same rate, why shouldn't he or any of the other Z Fighters reach the level of a Super Saiyan?
Because they aren't meant to.
Saiyans are just supposed to have an incredible amount of power (though few reach it).
If Toriyama had wanted the humans to keep up with Goku, he wouldn't have had Goku completely outstripping them from the get go, or have them utterly fail to do anything to a character who Goku then defeats with utter ease.
Humans can be strong, it's just that their strength pales in comparison to how powerful everyone else can become.
One Strip! One Strip!Well, it's mostly because after achieving it, they realized there was still more they could do with it, and worked at that.
The last Super Saiyan wtfpwned himself and his entire planet before he got a chance to find this out (since it's implied he achieved it while in the uncontrollable Oozaru state, and I'm always gonna be mad at Toriyama for getting rid of tails and never letting us see something like that).
One Strip! One Strip!Because they train in much shittier ways, and frankly don't have the same amount of potential, talent, or ingenuity as the Saiyans.
Edit: Acknowledging that different people have different limits and potential isn't the same thing as Hard Work Hardly Works.
edited 14th Oct '17 11:11:46 AM by LSBK
Saiyans have 3 transformations so far. Great Ape, Super Saiyan, and Super Saiyan God (and that is more of a ritual than a biological transformation). Anything else is just stacking those up (Super Saiyan 2 is going Super Saiyan as a Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan Blue, well, its true name is Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan...)
Humans don't transform, but Krillin on Namek was already stronger than any Saiyan individual but those of legends and the 3 living ones. And a year of training was enough to get every of them but Chaotzu to average Saiyan warrior power...
Krillin, Tien and Yamcha are scarily strong. They are big fish, but they have to share a pond with a giant green squid and two evergrowing blue whales.
I mean, you can feel that way, but the show has never shown that.
Goku has always quickly outpaced anyone who happens to be stronger or equal to him when they meet him. He works hard, sure, but so did other people. He always bore stronger results. Vegeta is the same, for the most part. And Gohan, Goten, and Trunks are all noted to have insane amounts of potential, more so than their fathers.
They are different, and the show has always treated them as such.
edited 14th Oct '17 11:24:40 AM by LSBK
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Well, yeah, he's the main character in a Shōnen Fighting Series, that's what they do. Gohan managed to stay at or even a little above Goku's level because Toriyama wanted to hand main character status over to Gohan (though he never quite pulled the trigger on it), and Vegeta stayed close to but slightly weaker than Goku because he's defined by being Goku's rival and has Popularity Power on his side. If Vegeta suddenly became unpopular, I'm sure you'd find all the other characters leaving him in the dust.
edited 14th Oct '17 11:30:30 AM by RavenWilder
And the thing is, there are ways for them to really get stronger, even if they can't be as powerful as Piccolo and the Saiyans.
There's still King Kai's full training, and learning the Kaioken (if at all possible); Old Kai's potential Unlock (for everyone but Krillin, who arguably already had his potential unlocked), and...well, there's android conversion, but only Gero knew how to do it, and they'd likely see that as cheating anyway.
One Strip! One Strip!I always assumed that the only true limit in the DBZ Verse was your own mortality and possibly old age weakening yourself. Of course Saiyans are not affected by the latter but humans probably are (I think it was stated in the manga that Roshi had lost some of his former strength, before Toriyama gave him a secret power level of 10k or something).

To be fair, I don't think Piccolo and 17 (or at least Piccolo) are supposed to be on the same level as Blue. Their gains are ridiculous and barely justified, but they aren't the same ridiculousness of Blue. Unless I missed something, which I could have.