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SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#28626: Oct 4th 2017 at 10:36:47 AM

Saiga! I need you to tell me that I can leave TV Tropes if I want to.

My various fanfics.
IceAnt573 Forever not amused. Since: May, 2015
Forever not amused.
#28627: Oct 4th 2017 at 11:08:53 AM

Seeing Popo grow to respect Dende and how pleasant Popo is around Piccolo is nice too.

edited 4th Oct '17 11:09:12 AM by IceAnt573

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#28628: Oct 10th 2017 at 8:13:49 PM

So... would you say Android 16 has good reasons to kill Goku? I mean, he does wear a lot of orange. And just look at that face.

Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#28629: Oct 10th 2017 at 8:52:52 PM

The funny thing about Android 16 is that he was perfectly capable of killing Goku at the start of the arc. Gero just decided to take the wrong Android to travel with him.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#28630: Oct 11th 2017 at 6:37:22 AM

Gero built himself into the wrong Android. The reason Androids 16, 17, and 18 were put on ice were all psychological. 17 and 18 were uncontrollable while 16 was, IIRC, too kind-hearted. And also he resembles Gero's dead son, so there's that too, but that was a decades-later justification.

These psychological issues are supposed to explain Gero's continued choices in making his androids shittier. He built the apex of his killing machines, Cell excluded, at 16 and then began making them weaker and less effectual from there. But it fails to explain why Gero would not use the most capable model he'd designed for himself when turning himself into an Android.

The answer, ultimately, seems to be that Dr. Gero knowingly made Dr. Gero into an inferior model of Android out of the fear that Dr. Gero would prove psychologically uncontrollable, and would not be willing to properly carry out the goals and ambitions of Dr. Gero.

The Sorting Algorithm of Evil really does not make a lot of sense in this regard.

edited 11th Oct '17 6:38:09 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#28631: Oct 11th 2017 at 7:08:05 AM

Not entirely if he considered energy absorption to be the superior method then those would have been the go to models. Potentially true as well since absorbing energy would make you as strong as needed.

The concept was taken to the extreme with Cell although he technically used both once he absorbed 17 and 18.

The truth is he planned for 19 and 20 to be the big bads and wrote in 17 and 18 when his editors forced him to come up with a new big bad and then again with Cell.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#28632: Oct 11th 2017 at 7:11:07 AM

Not entirely if he considered energy absorption to be the superior method then those would have been the go to models. Potentially true as well since absorbing energy would make you as strong as needed.

Vegeta aptly demonstrates the flaw in this plan. Going into a fight as a pushover easily capable of getting trashed by your opponent in seconds and then trying to make up the difference in the middle is a strategy that only works if your opponent is generous enough to give you the time you need.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#28633: Oct 11th 2017 at 7:24:11 AM

It's Dragonball. Your opponent will most certainly do that.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#28634: Oct 11th 2017 at 7:30:33 AM

I mean, Gero technically had a chance there; remember, Piccolo flat out said that Vegeta had lost a lot more energy than he was letting on due to his arrogance, and that if he had tried fighting Gero right then and there without taking a Senzu, he would have lost. With Vegeta dead and most likely the rest of his energy drained, he probably would have more of a chance against Piccolo, with the possibility of him winning that as well; with Piccolo drained too, Gero would have been able to kill everyone else, including possibly Trunks.

So yeah, Gero could have possibly won if it wasn't for him getting scared of Vegeta and his immensely cocky attitude after destroying 19.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
God_of_Awesome Since: Jan, 2001
#28635: Oct 11th 2017 at 8:04:01 AM

If the "Unlimited Energy Engine" did tend to cause psychological instabilities in any cyborg or android sapient enough to be useful to Gero, it might very well be a legitimate concern for Gero to put his brain inside one.

Like, do you want to pilot the stronger mecha than turns all its pilots crazy or the mecha that doesn't do that and theoretically has the capacity to gain that kind of power too.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#28636: Oct 11th 2017 at 8:08:58 AM

I mean, Gero technically had a chance there; remember, Piccolo flat out said that Vegeta had lost a lot more energy than he was letting on due to his arrogance, and that if he had tried fighting Gero right then and there without taking a Senzu, he would have lost. With Vegeta dead and most likely the rest of his energy drained, he probably would have more of a chance against Piccolo, with the possibility of him winning that as well; with Piccolo drained too, Gero would have been able to kill everyone else, including possibly Trunks.

So yeah, Gero could have possibly won if it wasn't for him getting scared of Vegeta and his immensely cocky attitude after destroying 19.

Against an exhausted and weakened Vegeta, yes, Gero had a chance. But I'm talking about Vegeta's fight with 19, where the fundamental flaw of entering a battle as woefully outmatched by your foe and trying to make up the difference mid-fight was thoroughly highlighted.

Vegeta literally dismembered him before 19 could have a chance to even the odds, because having a shittier battle power than your foe is always a terrible place to start.

The energy-absorbing Androids had more theoretical potential than the infinite energy ones, but actually trying to fulfill that potential proved to be an insurmountable feat. That you might become stronger than me eventually does you no good if we are fighting right now.

See also: Gohan and Krillin's Potential Unlocks which ultimately made them more powerful than the Ginyus, but at a slow enough rate as to be completely useless when they actually fought the Ginyus.

If the "Unlimited Energy Engine" did tend to cause psychological instabilities in any cyborg or android sapient enough to be useful to Gero, it might very well be a legitimate concern for Gero to put his brain inside one.

Like, do you want to pilot the stronger mecha than turns all its pilots crazy or the mecha that doesn't do that and theoretically has the capacity to gain that kind of power too.

It doesn't cause psychological instabilities. The problem with 17 and 18 is just that they wouldn't follow directions and were too free-willed.

edited 11th Oct '17 8:11:36 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#28637: Oct 11th 2017 at 9:31:32 AM

Given that Gero didn't know Super Saiyans were a thing, he probably felt his and 19's base stats were plenty strong enough.

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#28638: Oct 11th 2017 at 9:46:26 AM

Haven't we already talked about this? Something about putting his own mind into an android body might make it harder to control?

WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#28639: Oct 11th 2017 at 9:49:49 AM

I maintain that the energy absorbing model has a higher potential power level than 17 and 18 do, it's just that Gero never got to absorb enough energy to NOT be a pushover. That's why he attacked that city, to absorb energy. Actually, do supplemental materials ever state how strong 19 and 20 were? Because it's conceivable that they're weaker than Freeza.

Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#28640: Oct 11th 2017 at 9:50:57 AM

correct gero only had data of events before namek.

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#28641: Oct 11th 2017 at 10:21:12 AM

The simple answer is that it's a plot hole caused by the changing narrative.

As for infinite energy model vs. absorption model, at least GT answered the question of "Why not both?"

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#28642: Oct 11th 2017 at 10:49:07 AM

[up][up] How'd Frieza's DNA get in Cell, then?

The realest actual advantage to the energy absorbing model is that it's impossible to destroy them with ki blasts. Imagine how the fight with Vegeta would've gone if the Spirit Bomb made Vegeta stronger rather than weaker. Or if Raditz could absorb the Special Beam Cannon. The Z Fighters generally do open with ki blasts so nullifying that could theoretically be a huge boon.

edited 11th Oct '17 10:51:27 AM by Larkmarn

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#28643: Oct 11th 2017 at 10:50:45 AM

When Frieza and his father came to Earth a spybot took some samples. Gero wasn't directly overseeing that whole thing.

God_of_Awesome Since: Jan, 2001
#28644: Oct 11th 2017 at 11:37:56 AM

ideaGero didn't know how fucking stronk the twins were and genuinely thought "energy absorption" was better in real-world application.

He was wrong.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#28645: Oct 11th 2017 at 2:38:26 PM

The realest actual advantage to the energy absorbing model is that it's impossible to destroy them with ki blasts. Imagine how the fight with Vegeta would've gone if the Spirit Bomb made Vegeta stronger rather than weaker. Or if Raditz could absorb the Special Beam Cannon. The Z Fighters generally do open with ki blasts so nullifying that could theoretically be a huge boon.

I wouldn't say they use ki that much. Most have a handful of ki-based special attacks that they like to resort to as finishers, but the Earth-based fighters are predominately martial artists and tend to go for hand-to-hand more often.

Ironically, the one protagonist who loves throwing around ki blasts at the slightest provocation is Vegeta, the one Gero had the least reason to suspect he would ever actually have to fight, and the one who actually shut down 19.

Being able to absorb ki attacks is still an advantage, mind, but it's one that you can only reasonably expect to do once or twice before your opponent catches on. Especially when that person is someone like Son Goku, who's a master at mentally taking apart his adversary's strategy and deconstructing their fighting style. Gero had every reason to suspect that he would one day have to fight Son Goku. It was literally the point.

Which is why the nodes also allow for energy absorption through grappling but, again, Vegeta perfectly demonstrated the flaw in trying to grapple with an opponent who is completely out of your league.

Now, it might have worked if they absorbed one or two really big ki blasts that put them close enough to the opponent's ballpark that they could then grapple and drain the rest that way but, like...so many things have to go perfectly right for the energy absorbing models to ever be effective, and even then, you're gambling extensively on exactly how much force your opponent's willing to put into those things.

17 and 18, meanwhile, were able to make the Super Saiyans look like chumps without breaking a sweat, and 16 was a league above even them. Even Cell couldn't match 16 until he janked 17's generator, and that's after absorbing like half the planet. Limitless theoretical potential doesn't mean shit if it can't be fulfilled.

[up] Given that their battle powers can't be sensed, that's actually not an unreasonable idea. It's not out of the question that Gero legitimately didn't realize that he was making his Androids shittier with each new line.

edited 11th Oct '17 2:40:00 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#28646: Oct 11th 2017 at 5:22:30 PM

Sometimes you don't realize the kinks in a design until you take it for a test drive.

That's not an uncommon error for any engineer.

We all remember the trials of MCU Tony Stark and his early armour field tests.

One Strip! One Strip!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#28647: Oct 11th 2017 at 5:30:00 PM

  • Vegeta: How'd you fix the tensile problem?
  • Gero: Tensile problem?
  • Vegeta: (tears off 19's arms) You might want to look into it.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#28648: Oct 11th 2017 at 8:24:08 PM

There are a lot of issues you have to consider when turning yourself into a cyborg. The easy part is taking the brain out, but the hard part is taking the brain out.

I have a message from another time...
xanderiskander Since: Mar, 2012
#28649: Oct 11th 2017 at 10:21:37 PM

To be fair, I don't think they expected the Z-fighters to show up. They were probably going to absorb energy from the people on the island first.

Medigo03 Since: Sep, 2013
#28650: Oct 12th 2017 at 1:29:41 AM

yeah gero/20 stated that he made his androids strong enough to outclass however strong the fighters could physically be after all these years

(doesnt explain how they couldnt prepare for Picollo getting so strong, but eh)

also given how androids dont feel pain (as much), their opponents would naturally be tempted more towards ki attacks instead of physical strikes

Thats also why Goku fired that first (and almost second) Kamehameha at 19. Besides him being sick and trying to rush the fight.


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