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Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#28076: Jun 29th 2017 at 5:28:00 PM

[up][up] I mean, SS4 GT Goku is probably stronger than SSG BoG Goku, if only due to how power Goku's base would have gotten between the two time points; everything past Resurrection F however mucks everything up.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#28078: Jun 29th 2017 at 5:30:22 PM

No we wouldn't; Rosé is just another Super Saiyan Palette Swap like Blue is.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#28079: Jun 29th 2017 at 5:46:20 PM

I think there never should have been a Super SAiyan 2 and that Full Powered Super Saiyan should have had the Electricity.

And yeah, he was pretty consistent back in the day. That being said, now that he's trying to realistically allow characters like Krillin and Tenshihan to be important players, it really makes me wish that he'd (A) not made the Power Creep so high, and (B), just allowed them to learn Kaioken and work around the flaws.

That's a thing about a lot of forms: while I can understand them still having flaws that need to be overcome, it seems like that's not really a thing that's happened at all yet.

To say nothing of my belief that some of the flaws exists just to keep the heroes from actually winning (Potarra Fusion is essentially the same as Dance Fusion now— 'FUCKING USELESS—' for that very reason).

At least they supplied a reason why they couldn't just take some characters into the Room of time and Spirit and do Old Kai's unlocking ceremony (NICE GOING VEGETA! YOU JACKASS!), but it's still annoying.

One Strip! One Strip!
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#28080: Jun 29th 2017 at 5:51:46 PM

"NICE GOING VEGETA! YOU JACKASS!" is such a versatile and useful means to have conflict happen or take stuff off the table.

edited 29th Jun '17 5:51:56 PM by Enlong

I have a message from another time...
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#28081: Jun 29th 2017 at 6:06:15 PM

I like how Vegeta considered not being an asshole after Buu died and then doubled down on it by the time Super started.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#28082: Jun 29th 2017 at 6:40:38 PM

He never really considered not being an asshole. He just stopped assuming he was supposed to be better than Goku.

He accepted the latter was better than him for the first time ever, and now he's more realistic about his chances.

Rather than I'm better than him, and the universe better stop telling otherwise, he's not like Ok. I'm second, but now I actually get what I'm up against, and can find a realistic way to catch up.

One Strip! One Strip!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#28083: Jun 29th 2017 at 7:18:07 PM

Vegeta's rivalry to Goku is all there is to his character. When the series concluded originally, him getting over himself was the end of the arc. Since Super is now a thing, Vegeta has to regress to the only thing making his character distinct from Krillin or Goku.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#28084: Jun 29th 2017 at 7:30:48 PM

It's hardly the first time that's happened. Remember that time Vegeta swore he'd never fight again?

EDIT: Speaking of which, I'm totally expecting that to be the punchline to the Father-Son Kamehameha. I expect the Kamehameha itself to be a Crowning Moment Of Heartwarming with Gohan and Goku finally making peace, and Gohan accepting that he is valued and loved.

And then,

"BYYYYYYE SON!!!"

edited 29th Jun '17 7:32:57 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#28085: Jun 29th 2017 at 7:40:49 PM

I kinda want there to be a heartfelt and soft-spoken "Bye, son." when he takes the exploding Cell away.

I have a message from another time...
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#28086: Jun 29th 2017 at 7:43:01 PM

I expect that to happen abruptly.

Like, just a *pop* in the middle of Cell gloating. Everyone's all, "Shit, where's Goku?!" and then we cut to Kaio-sama who's just like, "GOKU, WHY?!" Boom.

edited 29th Jun '17 7:43:50 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#28087: Jun 29th 2017 at 7:43:41 PM

I don't know what point you're trying to make. Vegeta's character hasn't regressed at all. At the end of the Boo Saga, he didn't give up trying to become stronger than Goku, he accepted the fact that Goku was stronger than him and gave up his obsession to become stronger than Goku. He'll still train and get stronger and becoming stronger than Goku would be great but it's no longer a driving force in his life. Giving up that obsession allowed him to move on and do other things. If Beerus had shown up at any time before the End of Z, he'd have never done the Bingo Dance or gotten angry when Beerus hit Bulma and probably would have fought Goku over becoming the Super Saiyan God and again over who gets to fight Freeza. He also never would have become basically a mentor to Cabba.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#28088: Jun 29th 2017 at 7:44:59 PM

Vegeta has definitely progressed, but I don't really think you can deny that Super has him as obsessed with defeating Goku as ever.

Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#28089: Jun 29th 2017 at 8:00:53 PM

He hasn't regressed, he never gave up wanting to be stronger than Goku he just admitted to himself that Goku was better at that time.

He has since become more of a family man and willing to do embarrassing things to get stronger, unlike before with his 'Sayian Pride' catch phrase.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#28090: Jun 29th 2017 at 8:51:31 PM

Vegeta has progressed, and Super has acknowledged that, but like everything else in Super it's inconsistent.

His ephinany was admitting that Goku was better than him, and his goal changed from proving he was better than Goku to actually becoming better than Goku. A much healthier rivalry that is focused on self improvement, much like Goku's own philosophy (one thing that gets overlooked often is that Goku reciprocates the rivalry - in the Cell arc he is adamant about not letting Vegeta remain stronger than him).

Super will have him act just as unhealthily toward his rivalry, though, likely because his behaviour is so iconic. So is his character arc, so they keep showing how he has changed while also having him act like his old self at other points.

Considering that Vegeta didn't start getting really pissy about the rivalry until the late Freeza/early Android arc, it would be easy to characterize him without that. But that's not how people remember him. Hell, he even wears his Android arc outfit instead of continuing the manga's progression of phasing out the Saiyan aspects of his uniform!

Edit: also, people totally exaggerate Toriyama's forgetfulness. For starters, he hadn't forgotten Lunch - he wrote her out, and continued to reference her outside of the mang a.

As for Super Saiyan 3, he mistook it for Super Saiyan 2 - there is another quote where he elaborates that hearing of Super Saiyan 2 made him think "the one with the long hair". Remembered the form, mistook it as being 2 (probably forgot what 2 was since it is the most subtle form change). And this is two decades after he finished the manga, just coming back into the series. Why would he give a fuck during the interim? He wanted to be done with Dragon Ball.

edited 29th Jun '17 8:59:39 PM by Saiga

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#28091: Jun 29th 2017 at 9:49:12 PM

Um, the only reason why he didn't wear his Saiyan armor at all during the Buu Saga is simply because the Tournament had rules against anything that could be considered body armor, that was it. Vegeta himself eventually says that the armor itself is considered Saiyan formal wear, since the Saiyans apparently wore a primitive version of it before they got added into Frieza's army and they improved on it.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#28092: Jun 29th 2017 at 10:30:46 PM

[up] He wasn't wearing it before he even learned of he tournament. I don't know where you got that idea from but it's wrong.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#28093: Jun 29th 2017 at 10:40:33 PM

One of the few things that bug me about Super's dub is that it plays Vegeta more like how he was written in Z (but more of a Comically Serious character than before), rather than playing him as the post-defrosted "noble Grumpy Bear" that the Japanese version went with (at least, usually goes with). Same with 18, actually, who is even colder and emotionless in English, a la how she was in stuff like Bio-Broly.

Makes me wonder what they do when they get to stuff like Bra's birth or that episode where 18 goes well out of her way to get a gift for Krillin.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#28094: Jun 29th 2017 at 11:27:48 PM

[up][up][up] That is a rationalization of everything since G'day! Son Goku and his Mates Return put him back in the armour. It's there where they even come up with the formalwear explanation.

And that justification is only an in-universe one, when Vegeta's "humanization" of his outfits was a meta thing starting with the Freeza arc. By the epilogue he wears completely normal clothing.

Even GT stayed consistent with this.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#28095: Jun 29th 2017 at 11:35:58 PM

I mean, he could still wear his Saiyan clothing for formal occasions, I wouldn't be surprised if that last battle mentioned between Goku and Vegeta in Dragon Ball Online had Vegeta wear his Saiyan armor to commemorate his and Goku's final battle.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#28096: Jun 29th 2017 at 11:41:44 PM

He could but it was never alluded to until we hit the era of nostalgia and callbacks

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#28097: Jun 29th 2017 at 11:45:01 PM

It's still technically something Toriyama came up with though.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#28098: Jun 29th 2017 at 11:49:09 PM

Vegeta has definitely progressed, but I don't really think you can deny that Super has him as obsessed with defeating Goku as ever.

Agreed. Old Vegeta would have never encouraged Cabba to surpass him. He probably would've called him a disgrace to his race or something.

edited 29th Jun '17 11:49:56 PM by Hobgoblin

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#28099: Jun 30th 2017 at 5:27:43 AM

I admit that saying Vegeta regressed was incorrect, In general though, that is the only thing making his character distinct from the others.

Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#28100: Jun 30th 2017 at 9:15:33 AM

Piccolo, 18 and a few others haven't regressed but yeah most of the cast has to varying degrees.

I think it's more Flanderization with them attempting to handle the largest cast the series has ever had.


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