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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#27826: Jun 25th 2017 at 3:39:31 PM

Vegetarian stopped immediately after he hit Trunks.

Kakarrot didn't hold back against Gohand.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#27827: Jun 25th 2017 at 3:40:13 PM

I loved dodgeball, too, though I wonder if maybe dodgeballs used to be a lot harder back in the day, 'cause I can't remember getting hit with one ever actually hurting.

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#27828: Jun 25th 2017 at 3:54:51 PM

By "US voice actors", I mean Sabat and Schemmel. A bit more than "fans".

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#27829: Jun 25th 2017 at 3:56:11 PM

I know who you meant, and meant what I said.

SilentColossus (Don’t ask)
#27830: Jun 25th 2017 at 4:05:38 PM

Piccolo was literally a villain when he first kidnapped and brutally trained Gohan. Goku, meanwhile, is the "hero". Even Gohan was the only one who could defeat Cell, he still gave him a senzu, and Goku's love of a fair fight is the reasoning.

Potentially risking your son's life because you wanted a fair fight is not admirable behavior. Doesn't matter if Cell didn't take much damage.

edited 25th Jun '17 4:08:24 PM by SilentColossus

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#27831: Jun 25th 2017 at 4:10:40 PM

I'm very confused as to why people keep bringing that up as if it's a thing anyone has ever called good or admirable. I've never seen anyone try and say "yeah, it was totally cool for Goku to give Cell a senzu". That's usually not where the discussion lies.

And since I've seen people whitewash Piccolo's behavior there as "it was just training" or "he wasn't really going to let him die", it actually does bear mention.

edited 25th Jun '17 4:13:48 PM by LSBK

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#27832: Jun 25th 2017 at 4:11:49 PM

It's just people getting their word in. Doesn't matter if the exact thought isn't original anymore if they never had a chance to chime in

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#27833: Jun 25th 2017 at 4:12:15 PM

Yeah I think part of the reason Goku gets the "worst dad" reputation is that he's the protagonist, unlike Gendo or any of the other outright terrible dads in anime. He gets a lot more expectations and scrutiny placed upon him, even compared to characters in his own series.

Hmm... Can anyone name a protagonist dad who is worse than Goku? Seems pretty rare you get dad protagonists in the first place.

SilentColossus (Don’t ask)
#27834: Jun 25th 2017 at 4:12:54 PM

Because, generally speaking, if you care more about the fair fight than your son, you're a bad father.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#27835: Jun 25th 2017 at 4:14:22 PM

Well, that's one way of looking at the situation.

SilentColossus (Don’t ask)
#27836: Jun 25th 2017 at 4:16:43 PM

[up][up][up]

Because Gendo being a shit father is obvious, well known, and part of both his and Shinji's character. There isn't much to say about how he was bad, just how it effected Shinji.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#27837: Jun 25th 2017 at 4:19:28 PM

Also, I've never been one to give slack to characters that used to be antagonists. If they're supposed to on the good guys side now, and one of the primary antagonists, then their past shouldn't really factor into judging their current behavior. Nor, for that matter, should the protagonist who has always been a good guy be judged to a higher standard than them.

And this isn't just in reference to Dragon Ball, it's something in general I find irritating.

edited 25th Jun '17 4:20:10 PM by LSBK

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#27838: Jun 25th 2017 at 4:23:51 PM

Re: Other protagonists bad dads: Joseph Joestar might count, though he's not the protagonist anymore by the time he becomes a father. And he's also not a visibly awful parent until he's too old and feeble for the audience to hold it against him. Jotaro from the same series was also not a great dad, but that was about a guy who's emotionally distant with everyone also being emotionally distant with his daughter, not anything actually bad he'd done. And similarly he didn't become a father until well after his time as the protagonist was over.

edited 25th Jun '17 4:24:36 PM by Gilphon

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#27839: Jun 25th 2017 at 4:24:32 PM

There aren't any Shonen protagonist fathers who could be worse than Goku because the idea of a Shonen protagonist being a father outside the final chapter of their manga is rare to a fault.

Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#27840: Jun 25th 2017 at 4:24:35 PM

Not anime, but Jecht from Final Fantasy X?

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
SilentColossus (Don’t ask)
#27842: Jun 25th 2017 at 4:28:46 PM

This all comes down to the moment when Piccolo called out Goku's plan to defeat Cell. In that moment, Piccolo thought more like a father than Goku ever did. Hence, why people often think Piccolo is a better father; the moment is memorable. People respond to this by bringing up Piccolo's training, but the fact is that Piccolo wasn't doing that anymore. Unlike Goku, he acknowledged that Gohan was a eleven year old boy sent to fight a monster by his father. A father that decided that since he cares about a fair fight, then so must everyone else, so he healed that monster. And, until he was called out by Piccolo, just happily watched his son suffer because it was all going "according to plan". Which it wasn't, as Gohan's own pain wasn't enough; he had to see his friends suffer and 16 die for it to work.

Piccolo knew this about Gohan. He understood Gohan's personality enough to know that Goku's initial plan wasn't going to work, even if Gohan had the physical potential.

edited 25th Jun '17 4:31:40 PM by SilentColossus

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#27843: Jun 25th 2017 at 4:31:25 PM

The problem is that those same people then start to exaggerate how close Gohan was to Piccolo in canon up til Super turned Piccolo into a teddy bear. It's the ignorance of reality that starts to grate, not their personal feelings.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#27844: Jun 25th 2017 at 4:33:31 PM

[up][up]Well, I respond to it by saying that Piccolo didn't actually understand what Gohan was thinking, Gohan was not a normal 11-old-boy, largely do to Piccolo's actions, and that Cell hadn't actually done anything to really hurt Gohan, and was literally there only hope but... I doubt any of that, or all of the other things I can say would have any sway with you. Or a lot of people.

But if it's all based on one moment, then it's a incredibly shallow argument to begin with.

[up] But seriously this. This wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue for me if people just looked at the facts and went "you what, I still don't think much of Goku's parenting skills", I definitely get that. I don't get excess baggage that usually follows it though.

At this point it's less about Goku to me, and more just my compulsion for people to realize "but it was never really like that in the story."

edited 25th Jun '17 4:36:34 PM by LSBK

SilentColossus (Don’t ask)
#27845: Jun 25th 2017 at 4:35:58 PM

[up][up]

Perhaps. It has also been, like, what, almost twenty years since the original English dubbed airing? Most fans don't remember enough of Dragon Ball Z to form conclusive character analysis. But what Piccolo said in the Cell games stands out more than dozens of filler episodes and training arcs.

I doubt any of that, or all of the other things I can say would have any sway with you.

And I find this rather condescending.

edited 25th Jun '17 4:36:57 PM by SilentColossus

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#27847: Jun 25th 2017 at 4:37:53 PM

[up][up]A bit, probably. I usually try and avoid that.

[up]His power was going down at all, and he wasn't even breathing hard. Honestly, if I had to compare it to anything I'd say he was in a similar situation to Frieza for most of his fight on Namek.

Edit: And Piccolo, like everyone else, also tried to leave people even younger than Gohan was during Cell to fight Buu. Why does no one bring up Goten or Trunks ages when that happened? It's actually very inconsistent.

edited 25th Jun '17 4:46:16 PM by LSBK

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#27848: Jun 25th 2017 at 4:46:40 PM

Gohan shrugged everything off at first, but when Piccolo was lecturing Goku Gohan was screaming his lungs out at the pain of being squeezed by Cell.

SilentColossus (Don’t ask)
#27849: Jun 25th 2017 at 4:47:15 PM

It's fine.

Anyway, I don't think Piccolo wins any father rewards, either. Saying he did it better than Goku is really not saying much, especially since there is only a few stand out moments for Piccolo.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#27850: Jun 25th 2017 at 4:49:50 PM

I mean, besides that speech (again, debatable) and giving his life I can't really think of anything. And Goku also gave his life to protect Gohan, which was how Piccolo was even in a position to kidnap him in the first place. Besides that he really doesn't do anything with Gohan that Goku isn't also there for.

[up][up]Like I said, like Frieza. Even during that, after that was over Gohan was no more worse for wear than before.

Another reason I dislike this is that my compulsion to clarify things often leaves me thinking I'm defending things I don't actually agree with. It's a bad feeling.

edited 25th Jun '17 4:51:52 PM by LSBK


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