Piccolo was literally a villain when he first kidnapped and brutally trained Gohan. Goku, meanwhile, is the "hero". Even Gohan was the only one who could defeat Cell, he still gave him a senzu, and Goku's love of a fair fight is the reasoning.
Potentially risking your son's life because you wanted a fair fight is not admirable behavior. Doesn't matter if Cell didn't take much damage.
edited 25th Jun '17 4:08:24 PM by SilentColossus
I'm very confused as to why people keep bringing that up as if it's a thing anyone has ever called good or admirable. I've never seen anyone try and say "yeah, it was totally cool for Goku to give Cell a senzu". That's usually not where the discussion lies.
And since I've seen people whitewash Piccolo's behavior there as "it was just training" or "he wasn't really going to let him die", it actually does bear mention.
edited 25th Jun '17 4:13:48 PM by LSBK
Yeah I think part of the reason Goku gets the "worst dad" reputation is that he's the protagonist, unlike Gendo or any of the other outright terrible dads in anime. He gets a lot more expectations and scrutiny placed upon him, even compared to characters in his own series.
Hmm... Can anyone name a protagonist dad who is worse than Goku? Seems pretty rare you get dad protagonists in the first place.
Also, I've never been one to give slack to characters that used to be antagonists. If they're supposed to on the good guys side now, and one of the primary antagonists, then their past shouldn't really factor into judging their current behavior. Nor, for that matter, should the protagonist who has always been a good guy be judged to a higher standard than them.
And this isn't just in reference to Dragon Ball, it's something in general I find irritating.
edited 25th Jun '17 4:20:10 PM by LSBK
Re: Other protagonists bad dads: Joseph Joestar might count, though he's not the protagonist anymore by the time he becomes a father. And he's also not a visibly awful parent until he's too old and feeble for the audience to hold it against him. Jotaro from the same series was also not a great dad, but that was about a guy who's emotionally distant with everyone also being emotionally distant with his daughter, not anything actually bad he'd done. And similarly he didn't become a father until well after his time as the protagonist was over.
edited 25th Jun '17 4:24:36 PM by Gilphon
This all comes down to the moment when Piccolo called out Goku's plan to defeat Cell. In that moment, Piccolo thought more like a father than Goku ever did. Hence, why people often think Piccolo is a better father; the moment is memorable. People respond to this by bringing up Piccolo's training, but the fact is that Piccolo wasn't doing that anymore. Unlike Goku, he acknowledged that Gohan was a eleven year old boy sent to fight a monster by his father. A father that decided that since he cares about a fair fight, then so must everyone else, so he healed that monster. And, until he was called out by Piccolo, just happily watched his son suffer because it was all going "according to plan". Which it wasn't, as Gohan's own pain wasn't enough; he had to see his friends suffer and 16 die for it to work.
Piccolo knew this about Gohan. He understood Gohan's personality enough to know that Goku's initial plan wasn't going to work, even if Gohan had the physical potential.
edited 25th Jun '17 4:31:40 PM by SilentColossus
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Well, I respond to it by saying that Piccolo didn't actually understand what Gohan was thinking, Gohan was not a normal 11-old-boy, largely do to Piccolo's actions, and that Cell hadn't actually done anything to really hurt Gohan, and was literally there only hope but... I doubt any of that, or all of the other things I can say would have any sway with you. Or a lot of people.
But if it's all based on one moment, then it's a incredibly shallow argument to begin with.
But seriously this. This wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue for me if people just looked at the facts and went "you what, I still don't think much of Goku's parenting skills", I definitely get that. I don't get excess baggage that usually follows it though.
At this point it's less about Goku to me, and more just my compulsion for people to realize "but it was never really like that in the story."
edited 25th Jun '17 4:36:34 PM by LSBK
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Perhaps. It has also been, like, what, almost twenty years since the original English dubbed airing? Most fans don't remember enough of Dragon Ball Z to form conclusive character analysis. But what Piccolo said in the Cell games stands out more than dozens of filler episodes and training arcs.
And I find this rather condescending.
edited 25th Jun '17 4:36:57 PM by SilentColossus
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A bit, probably. I usually try and avoid that.
His power was going down at all, and he wasn't even breathing hard. Honestly, if I had to compare it to anything I'd say he was in a similar situation to Frieza for most of his fight on Namek.
Edit: And Piccolo, like everyone else, also tried to leave people even younger than Gohan was during Cell to fight Buu. Why does no one bring up Goten or Trunks ages when that happened? It's actually very inconsistent.
edited 25th Jun '17 4:46:16 PM by LSBK
I mean, besides that speech (again, debatable) and giving his life I can't really think of anything. And Goku also gave his life to protect Gohan, which was how Piccolo was even in a position to kidnap him in the first place. Besides that he really doesn't do anything with Gohan that Goku isn't also there for.
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Like I said, like Frieza. Even during that, after that was over Gohan was no more worse for wear than before.
Another reason I dislike this is that my compulsion to clarify things often leaves me thinking I'm defending things I don't actually agree with. It's a bad feeling.
edited 25th Jun '17 4:51:52 PM by LSBK

Vegetarian stopped immediately after he hit Trunks.
Kakarrot didn't hold back against Gohand.
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