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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#27601: Jun 23rd 2017 at 6:30:49 PM

He didn't realize it was a mistake to train him up, he just figured that it was up to Gohan to, well, step up at that point on his own. At no point does he have a moment where he goes "it was wrong to bring a child into this."

Edit: And none of this is to say that Piccolo is wrong for being worried about Gohan, or even wrong to be angry at Goku for the situation. Just being angry about the right things would be better.

edited 23rd Jun '17 6:37:30 PM by LSBK

Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#27602: Jun 23rd 2017 at 6:43:59 PM

Piccolo was tough as nails and blunt, he warms up and improves over time. TFS just exaggerates it.

It wasn't a good thing with Gohan being so young but that directness certainly was better than Goku's misleading actions and lies leading up to the Cell Games. Goku just couldn't admit that his own son was stronger than him till it he saw that Cell was too, hence the selfishness I mentioned earlier.

edited 23rd Jun '17 6:45:09 PM by Memers

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#27603: Jun 23rd 2017 at 6:47:46 PM

Oh, then you're just flat out wrong then. Goku wasn't trying to feed his own ego, he wanted to confirm Cell's strength to make sure it was at a level that he couldn't beat himself, but was well within Gohan's abilities.

The way you're phrasing that make it seem like you're deliberately making it out to be as bad as possible to serve your argument. Something I, and others, have already called you on.

edited 23rd Jun '17 6:49:49 PM by LSBK

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#27604: Jun 23rd 2017 at 6:48:01 PM

What? There's no way what Piccolo did was better. He kidnapped and abused a child who had been living a peaceful life.

The idea that Goku couldn't admit that Gohan was stronger is completely unfounded. He wanted Gohan to be stronger when they started training, and told him of this. The fact that he kept it secret was a poor decision, but was more likely done out of pride for his son considering the way he boasts about how much stronger Gohan is at the Cell Games. He just didn't realize how Gohan would react, which is a failing on his part - but it's also something that comes out of nowhere on Gohan's side.

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#27605: Jun 23rd 2017 at 6:50:40 PM

By couldn't admit do you mean that he wouldn't say it? Because he went in knowing that Gohan was way stronger than him and it was kind of the plan.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#27606: Jun 23rd 2017 at 6:54:47 PM

Except half the plan also seemed to involve Gohan accessing his hidden power/rage to ascend past Super Saiyan proper, something that, as we've discussed before, was absolutely needed because Cell was still not using his full power even against Gohan, and only did so against Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Even Goku is shocked by how much power Cell was actually hiding the whole time, meaning he was actually wrong about how strong Cell had been the whole time.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#27607: Jun 23rd 2017 at 7:05:40 PM

The issue here is that Piccoro at the time was still the jerkass king of hell of previous series and see Gohan as spolied brat(which is true in a way) and it take a lot to turn him into good.

Goku on the other hand really seen to misunderstand Gohan pacific nature to the point Piccoro at point blank have to tell him that at the same time Cell is kicking him over and over and over, he didnt really get sayian 2 after 16 death which is horrible thing and everyone should be ashame for let that happen.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#27608: Jun 23rd 2017 at 7:08:57 PM

He's not a pacifist...he was afraid of becoming a sadist...which is what ended up happening and it screwed everything up.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#27609: Jun 23rd 2017 at 7:09:09 PM

Unrelated, but did IANCE get perma-banned?

Thebrawlbro Since: Aug, 2013
#27610: Jun 23rd 2017 at 7:10:18 PM

... Not touching the current discussion with a ten foot pole.

Episode was good. Liked Goku trying to call up Mr. Satan at first, before going back to Gohan.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#27611: Jun 23rd 2017 at 7:13:04 PM

The issue here is that most fans will always believe whatever suits their narratives, even if they happen to be misconceptions born out of ignorance to context. It's the reason the joke about Piccolo being a better father to Gohan became Fanon.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#27612: Jun 23rd 2017 at 7:13:19 PM

He is a pacifist, just not an absolute one. His rationale for not wanting to fight Cell is that this fight is a stupid ego-wanking dick-measuring contest.

When he fought against the Saiyans, they were a hostile invading force here to destroy the planet. When he fought against Frieza, he was a cruel galactic emperor trying to achieve immortality. Cell is just some obnoxious idiot who wants to prove his dick is bigger than everybody else's, while Goku's sitting there going, "Go on, Gohan! Whip it out! Let's see that dick!"

The only stakes in this fight is that Cell's enough of an asshole to be like, "Imma blow up the planet if I don't see everyone's dicks right now," and that just doesn't resonate with Gohan on an emotional level. He has no respect for Cell, and that makes it difficult to respect Goku's plan for him to have some grandiose ultimate battle against his archnemesis.

edited 23rd Jun '17 7:17:00 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#27613: Jun 23rd 2017 at 7:16:19 PM

Speaking of dicks, it's a good thing Goku's not gonna live to see the end of this fight.

The legend has returned.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#27614: Jun 23rd 2017 at 7:17:32 PM

Oh I can tell I'm going to like this episode...

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#27615: Jun 23rd 2017 at 7:18:01 PM

I see no reason Cell's motivation should resonate with Gohan any less than Frieza's or the Saiyans. In the end, if nothing stopped them, they were going to kill everyone.

The only real difference is that Gohan actually believe he was stronger than Cell, or at least that he could become stronger, and for some reason he suddenly thought reasoning with him or doing nothing were suddenly legit options.

[up]You might, honestly, I'm not sure why this episode in particularly spurred this conversation on.

edited 23rd Jun '17 7:18:49 PM by LSBK

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#27616: Jun 23rd 2017 at 7:21:22 PM

[up]Really? The argument about Goku being a bad father was always going to come up due to what this episode covered.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#27617: Jun 23rd 2017 at 7:23:01 PM

Yeah, but this episode more or less did it how "canon" did it. They haven't done any really big exaggerations with it yet. Who knows, they might not.

edited 23rd Jun '17 7:23:28 PM by LSBK

hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#27618: Jun 23rd 2017 at 7:24:25 PM

The issue here is that most fans will always believe whatever suits their narratives, even if they happen to be misconceptions born out of ignorance to context.

Why do I feel like it's particularly cancerous in the Dragon Ball fandom?

Especially when it comes to power levels?

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#27619: Jun 23rd 2017 at 7:28:16 PM

It's a cancerous thing for all fandoms.

Hell, it's a cancerous thing for people outside of fandoms.

It's why people are still convinced that Pokemon training is basically slavery, despite numerous in universe explanations for it.

Hell, sometimes I still look at it that way, because all the explanations, no matter how much they might make sense can seem like excuses.

One Strip! One Strip!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#27620: Jun 23rd 2017 at 7:28:19 PM

[up][up]It's an old series with a lot of western fans due to being part of the first anime boom. Large fanbases without toxic fans here or there are unheard of.

edited 23rd Jun '17 7:28:38 PM by VeryMelon

Thebrawlbro Since: Aug, 2013
#27621: Jun 23rd 2017 at 7:28:42 PM

Yeah, they didn't really change much of what hapened in canon in this episode. The exact same events happen, with basically the exact same motivations.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#27622: Jun 23rd 2017 at 7:29:41 PM

Whn I said gohan is a pacific is that he fight to defend the one who cared, not because he WANTS to fight, if anything Gohan is closer to a western superhero like superman than shonen chararter like is father.

he will fight but he dosent want to and in a way he dosent get is father and viceversa.

And the reason this happen is because this episodes were the one that establish the "goku bad father" meme, is like sasuke being a super emo bitch, is going to appear whatever we wanted or not.

edited 23rd Jun '17 7:31:07 PM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Grahf Since: Jan, 2001
#27623: Jun 23rd 2017 at 7:31:01 PM

Seems rather obvious that when Gohan ascends he's going to treat beating the shit out of Cell like beating the shit out of his dad by proxy.

Anyways, I liked Cell being fight-yandere for Goku, that was fun.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#27624: Jun 23rd 2017 at 7:31:48 PM

I mean, doesn't help Pokemon's case when the original idea for it involved buying monsters in a shop to fight for you, with them in cages in those stores.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#27625: Jun 23rd 2017 at 7:33:19 PM

..wait...there were cages?

Oh...I can see your point.

One Strip! One Strip!

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