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Dragon Ball Z Abridged

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RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#27376: Jun 3rd 2017 at 8:17:13 AM

I guess I'm approaching it from being more familiar with pre-Z Dragon Ball, where the characters' absurd leaps forward in power were purely the result of intense training and work out regimens. I never saw going Super Saiyan as being that different from, say, Roshi gaining a super huge and muscular form when he does a moon-shattering kamehameha.

edited 3rd Jun '17 8:17:43 AM by RavenWilder

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#27377: Jun 3rd 2017 at 8:43:19 AM

There was more to it than workout regimens. Increasing the difficulty of those regimens was also a part of it. "Mountain Training" as it tends to be called would only take the characters so far; after a certain point, major gains became the result of either super training with special conditions or artificial powerups.

  1. The magic poison water that serves as the manga's first potential unlock.
  2. God as personal trainer.
  3. 10x Gravity workouts under Kaio-sama.
  4. Guru's power to awaken a person's untapped potential.
  5. 100x Gravity workouts in Bulma's gravity chamber.
  6. 500x Gravity workouts in Bulma's better gravity chamber.
  7. Time-condensed super-training in the Room of Spirit and Time under vaguely defined ultra-extreme conditions that will flat-out murder you if you're unprepared.
  8. Old Kaioshin's power to awaken a person's untapped potential but harder.

The characters who get major gains do continue training through the series and many gains come from it, but the distinction is that they regularly ramp up their training methods to more and more impossible limits. And even then, there's a limit to its effectiveness for the characters who make those gains; Piccolo's Namekian Fusion is responsible for a lot of his growth as well, while Goku's base form never actually surpasses Frieza prior to Super; the 50x, 100x, and 400x power boosts provided by their Super Saiyan transformations are an essential reason for why even the Saiyans can keep up with their villains from Frieza forward.

The humans have no multipliers, no convenient racial traits that massively swell their battle power based on an arbitrary criteriaHey! , and they never expanded their training techniques beyond Krillin firing Kamehamehas at the ocean and Tien punching Chiaotzu in the mountains. That's why they fell behind.

edited 3rd Jun '17 8:45:24 AM by TobiasDrake

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Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#27378: Jun 3rd 2017 at 8:44:54 AM

I think punching Chiaotzu was for purely therapeutic reasons.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#27379: Jun 3rd 2017 at 8:46:21 AM

It might just be, as I'm staring at the words "Tien punching Chiaotzu in the mountains" and suddenly realizing how euphemistic that sounds.

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RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#27380: Jun 3rd 2017 at 9:00:50 AM

[up][up][up] Again, that's more of a Saiyan Saga and onward thing. Way I see it, once you introduce the idea that even ordinary human beings can, purely through physical fitness and learning to control their bodies' energies, blow up the frickin' moon, any attempt to say that a certain level of power is beyond what the human body can achieve just feels arbitrary.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#27381: Jun 3rd 2017 at 9:07:10 AM

It just seems like you ignored the actual point of Tobias' post.

There was more to it than workout regimens.

Here. None of the humans were realistically barred from getting stronger, but they never went through half the things the aliens did to reach those heights. That is the critique.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#27382: Jun 3rd 2017 at 9:29:23 AM

[up] That.

Also, it really wasn't a Saiyans onward thing. It was a Piccolo onward thing. The introduction of Piccolo was the point where the humans ceased to matter, and where no amount of Mountain Training would catch them up. The only way Goku was even able to match him was with the manga's first ever Potential Unlock effect boosting his power.

They never caught up after that. Tien and Krillin trained really hard for the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai but Goku and Piccolo are still in a league of their own. The humans all trained really hard for the arrival of the Saiyans, but were still hopelessly outclassed by Nappa, Goku, and Vegeta.

Tao Pai Pai was the last time the manga considered "he just trained really hard" to be an acceptable explanation for closing a huge gap in power between characters, and the gaps only got wider from there.

And YMMV on whether that one even counts, or if Korin's Tower should be considered another case of Special Circumstances Training.

edited 3rd Jun '17 9:32:31 AM by TobiasDrake

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RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#27383: Jun 3rd 2017 at 9:39:28 AM

Aren't they mostly training by sparring with each other? If being trained by an exceptionally talented teacher or under exceptionally difficult conditions counts as "special circumstances", then I'd say regularly sparring with some of the most powerful martial artists on the planet counts, too.

The "potential unlock" thing is mostly just a tool for letting the characters get stronger instantly when the plot doesn't allow them enough time to actually do an intense training session.

edited 3rd Jun '17 9:41:25 AM by RavenWilder

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#27384: Jun 3rd 2017 at 9:57:40 AM

Regularly sparring with a peer can get you some gains but even that isn't the same as sparring with someone who's significantly beyond you. Gohan as a kid sparring with Piccolo gave him massive returns because of how powerful Piccolo is compared to him. He didn't quite catch up to Piccolo, but he was able to match Krillin from it. Tien trading blows with Chiaotzu, a partner who is actually weaker than him, just isn't the same.

Krillin typically doesn't even use a partner, so that's even less effective.

And even then, it pales in comparison to, say, doing the same thing but under the effects of 500x gravity magnifying your results. That's just basic workout logic. There comes a point when lifting 120 lbs stops doing anything for you and you need to move up to 150. The humans are well beyond that point so far as Mountain Training goes, while the aliens are sitting over there bench-pressing the goddamn gym.

edited 3rd Jun '17 10:00:28 AM by TobiasDrake

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#27385: Jun 3rd 2017 at 9:58:06 AM

They never caught up after that. Tien and Krillin trained really hard for the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai but Goku and Piccolo are still in a league of their own. The humans all trained really hard for the arrival of the Saiyans, but were still hopelessly outclassed by Nappa, Goku, and Vegeta.

That last one is especially cruel, since they all became stronger in one year after training with Kami than Goku did in three, and they were still woefully lacking. It's never really explained why. Some thought that it's because Kami left most of Goku's training to Mr. Popo, though it's possible they just improved their training methods in the five years since the 23 Budokai.

Or that since Tien, Chiaotzu, Krillin, Yamcha and Yajirobe had actual partners to spar with, they were able to gain more than Goku on his own against Popo most of the time.

Edit: Ninja'ed but it looks like we agree it was the sparring that helped them.

edited 3rd Jun '17 9:58:47 AM by HandsomeRob

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#27386: Jun 3rd 2017 at 9:58:50 AM

Goku and Vegeta train with actual gods, the humans train among each other. You're comparing apples and oranges, because the no amount of training should give them the exact same type of gains.

Especially since most of the Aliens have inherent racial differences that allows them to outpace the humans. Justifying the humans being able to keep up with "They trained really hard" invalidates that.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#27387: Jun 3rd 2017 at 10:03:25 AM

Precisely.

Now, it's not impossible to justify the humans catch up. Like, you could say that Yamcha was failing around the desert one day when he discovered an ancient shrine from a forgotten people that draws out the secret precursor power of humans and ascends them into gods or some shit. Maybe they have a secret hidden power or ancient transformation long forgotten too. Power-boosting plot contrivances are a time-honored tradition in Dragon Ball.

But we are so far past the point that "Trained really hard" is an acceptable explanation that it's not even funny.

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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#27388: Jun 3rd 2017 at 10:05:53 AM

Or maybe Yamcha cooked good enough that he was able to bribe Whis.

Y'know, after Whis wakes up from the foodgasm coma.

It's. Interesting. To me that.

Like, Goku trains with Kami for years, and ends up at about 300. Ish.

The humans train with Kami for a couple months and end up in the 1000s.

Something about that is weird to me. Almost like. The humans get better gains from pure training. In and of itself.

Like, the Saiyans have Super Saiyan and Zenkai and stuff. So. There's probably still going to be a gap, yeah.

edited 3rd Jun '17 10:10:34 AM by unnoun

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#27389: Jun 3rd 2017 at 10:11:51 AM

I know right?

I feel like the only reason they got that strong is because since they were going to lose anyway, Toriyama figured it didn't matter how much sense their increase in power made.

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Arha Since: Jan, 2010
Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#27391: Jun 3rd 2017 at 10:44:19 AM

If the humans unlocked the power of Persona, they could make significant gains.

Imagine Krillin with the power of, say, Metatron, for instance.

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Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#27392: Jun 3rd 2017 at 10:45:36 AM

Yeah he'd get a massive upgrade to being weaker than he already is.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#27393: Jun 3rd 2017 at 10:46:12 AM

It works for Gohan!

edited 3rd Jun '17 10:46:22 AM by TobiasDrake

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Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#27394: Jun 3rd 2017 at 10:52:03 AM

Considering metatron is YHVH's voice, and the whole amala network is a thing, I'd say Krillin would be pretty damn strong with Metatron at his side.

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Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#27395: Jun 3rd 2017 at 10:53:17 AM

I don't think it's worth losing his penis though.

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#27396: Jun 3rd 2017 at 10:56:12 AM

Personas aren't demons and nothing a persona has been shown to do has been anywhere near the scale of what even Roshi can do.

Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#27397: Jun 3rd 2017 at 10:59:55 AM

Eh, Satanael begs to differ (mild spoilers but Okumura's shadow has a galaxy destroying attack in his palace, and Yaldabaoth and his Archangels Should be above that, with Satanel's Sinful Shot killing him in one move. And of course, the whole universe rewriting situation in the 2 duology )

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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#27398: Jun 3rd 2017 at 11:01:21 AM

Krillin, Tien, Yamcha, and Chiaotzu had each other as well as Kami. So it makes sense that they would gain more.

edited 3rd Jun '17 11:01:31 AM by VeryMelon

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#27399: Jun 3rd 2017 at 11:02:47 AM

Okay seriously that's enough talk about Persona. It's not related.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#27400: Jun 3rd 2017 at 11:12:36 AM

[up]everything can be related if you try hard enought.

Anyway is not just traing, it also become way how to unlock the Next transformation, to the point special training as become a way to unlock the power up rarher than and end of itself.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

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