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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#27351: Jun 2nd 2017 at 2:41:25 AM

My issue is that you shouldn't even NEED to make everyone as strong as Goku - ignoring the power bloat Goku went through in the first place - and doing so is just being really lazy and shallow.

It's really like the writers don't know how to script anything other than "holy shit THIS GUY is really strong and hype get hyped for THIS GUY" "isn't THIS GUY great because THIS GUY is strong and nothing else amirite guys give it up for THIS GUY"

rinse and repeat

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#27352: Jun 2nd 2017 at 5:02:18 AM

If only the tournament was more interesting than a Battle Royal.

TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#27353: Jun 2nd 2017 at 5:15:35 AM

Yea, but at what cost? Does it really mean a whole lot when they had to break consistency and series standards to justify it?

My resonse to the whole power level consistency debate is usually something along the lines of, "Who cares? The fights are beautifully animated and choreographed. Let's just enjoy that."

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
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#27354: Jun 2nd 2017 at 7:01:52 AM

And that's fine, but I see so many people trying to justify it in so many varying ways claiming "It's a good thing" and I'm like ":\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#27355: Jun 2nd 2017 at 7:53:23 AM

How is it inconsistent? It's a fundamental aspect of the series that anyone can achieve massive boosts in power simply by working out really hard.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#27356: Jun 2nd 2017 at 7:56:10 AM

Yeah, but it's also a fundamental tennant of the series that the Saiyans are always gonna be miles ahead of those people. The humans reached their upper limit years ago, because at some point, all the tricks and fancy techniques in the world were rendered useless by pure power.

Strategy is only relevant if you're at least in the same ball park as the guys you're fighting, which a good majority of them aren't.

I still kinda want to just enjoy the fact that the humans are back in the game as well, but I can see why people are annoyed.

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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#27357: Jun 2nd 2017 at 8:03:36 AM

It's never been about the saiyans, but the simple fact that it took years of training under special circumstances to get as strong as the aliens did. The humans didn't do any special training, not even a token 2-3 years in the Room of Spirit and Time, and all of a sudden they catch up to Buu in terns of power. This is the main reason I never cared for Freeza coming back in his own film, as it just diluted the point of his character for nostalgia pandering.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#27358: Jun 2nd 2017 at 8:16:25 AM

That is true.

One thing about the humans is they had access to at least a few of the methods Goku used to become stronger (room of time and spirit, training to use the Kaioken, and in the case of Gohan, the Hidden power release), but Toriyama never had them bother (possibly because he'd decided to push them out of the spotlight).

It's kinda annoying how now they just start doing normal training, and are suddenly shown to be on par (or at least able to not die against) much stronger character. Even Goku holding back to his bare minimum should be so above Krillin that the fight should be done in seconds.

It all comes back to Power Levels honestly. Frieza was way too powerful, and made everyone else way too powerful as well (even the ones who were ultimately weaker than him). It destroyed the combat utility of those characters.

Then again, Goten and Trunks became Super Saiyans because SHUT UP! THAT'S WHY! so maybe there was always a way for the humans to become powerful: Toriyama simply decided he wanted them to be...that is, if this is part of Toriyama's notes, and not Toei pulling bullshit again.

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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#27359: Jun 2nd 2017 at 8:17:46 AM

It'll be half a year at the least before the manga shows us what the humans will do to get stronger.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
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#27360: Jun 2nd 2017 at 8:21:07 AM

I mean, even if this is just Toei "bullshitting" again, it's ultimately on Toriyama's head for deciding to use these characters in the first place, since he could have easily just made it so you didn't need ten fighters on a team. Toei is probably just trying to justify why said characters are even getting involved in the first place.

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Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#27361: Jun 2nd 2017 at 8:33:02 AM

Why are we acting like all the side characters are as strong as Goku now? The only one to reach his level was Android 17 (which was bullshit, yes). All of Goku's other fights with his friends are just more examples of Goku sandbagging like we just had a conversation about.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#27362: Jun 2nd 2017 at 8:33:49 AM

[up][up]I don't think anyone denies that. There were several different ways this tournament could have gone without issue, but the way it is now doesn't sound interesting to me.

edited 2nd Jun '17 8:34:06 AM by VeryMelon

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#27363: Jun 2nd 2017 at 8:54:40 AM

How is it inconsistent? It's a fundamental aspect of the series that anyone can achieve massive boosts in power simply by working out really hard.

No, it isn't. Anyone can get stronger by working hard, but the massive, plot relevant, boosts in power were decidedly not reserved for all the characters equally.

Part of that's method used, but a big factor has always just been that Goku, Vegeta, and their respective offspring just have way more potential than most other characters could ever hope for.

edited 2nd Jun '17 8:55:46 AM by LSBK

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
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#27364: Jun 2nd 2017 at 10:24:38 AM

[up][up][up] Yea, but Goku is also using Super Saiyan Blue while fighting these characters. We don't know how much he's sandbagging. And if he is sandbagging a whole lot, then it just makes the fact that these characters can only just barely keep up with him look worse by comparison.

It's like, there's no defining line. Gohan goes from losing to Krillin, and Piccolo to pushing Goku towards using SSJBKK in the span of a few hours. With the only explanation being he "trained really hard". Same thing with Roshi suddenly being able to keep up with Base Goku.

There's no rhyme or reason, it's just handwaved by "they trained" without actually going over what training the did. I understand people just gloss over that because they'd rather see these characters in limelight regardless of logic or reasoning, but it's still a glaring issue that I don't think gets enough attention because of nostalgia.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#27365: Jun 2nd 2017 at 11:59:56 AM

It makes more sense that he's just sandbagging a lot, as consistent with the way Super approaches situations, 'evening" it's fights by having stronger characters blatantly not use their full power. It's the basic rule of thumb for most of Super, especially casuals situations, though the frequency of which actually somewhat bothered me in several of the more dramatic arcs as it killed the tension.

With Krillin, especially, the context makes it pretty clear that Goku is intentionally not really trying.

edited 2nd Jun '17 12:39:08 PM by KnownUnknown

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#27366: Jun 2nd 2017 at 11:16:32 PM

Years ago, before I read the manga, I made a lot of disparaging comments about the concept of power levels. One of them was that power levels were determined purely by the needs of the plot. Characters fell behind not because it fit organically with the universe, but because Toriyama didn't care enough to keep them in the game. If he decided one day that he wanted, say, Yajirobe to suddenly be trading blows with Super Saiyan 3, he'd just throw in an offhand reference to Yajirobe meditating for three hours under the Rock of You Are Now Stronger Than Super Saiyan 3, and bam, Yajirobe can fight Goku at Super Saiyan 3.

Reading the manga at least gave me a healthier respect for Toriyama trying to keep things plausible. There are still some things that prompt ridiculous leaps - f*ck you, Saiyan zenkais - but most of the gains do make a certain amount of sense.

It is distressing to know, years later, that Toriyama has decided to vindicate my initial derision.

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Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
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#27367: Jun 2nd 2017 at 11:18:18 PM

That's assuming that all of this is Toriyama's doing and not Toei's.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#27368: Jun 3rd 2017 at 6:07:30 AM

It's pretty strange for him to change things at Toei's insistence. I mean, he's flat out done as he pleased before, changing the story when he wanted to.

He turned Goku into an adult even though his editor was worried about such a huge change while saying I didn't really care about that, and he's shown that he's not above tossing his characters under a bus if it's the story he wants to tell.

He can be swayed by fan demand (Vegeta owes his life and role to that), but still, he doesn't really seem like the type of guy to pander. If he has something in mind for a character, he uses them, and if not, fuck 'em.

Still we'll have to wait and see how the manga handles it to know who's idea it was for everyone to get as strong as they have.

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#27369: Jun 3rd 2017 at 6:12:10 AM

It's not that Toei would be making him change things, it's that they can literally add whatever they want once Toriyama gives them the outline.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#27370: Jun 3rd 2017 at 6:58:31 AM

That too.

That being said, we know the tournament is in both versions, and that the make up of the teams will likely be the same, so I guess it's a matter of whether the justification for the members is the same in the manga or not.

Toei's justifications are incredibly weak, but we'll see if Toyotaro does better.

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
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#27371: Jun 3rd 2017 at 7:25:49 AM

Toyotaro will probably just give some extremely detailed explanation; Krillin has some secret power as a monk, Roshi's immortality gives him some advantage. etc etc.

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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#27372: Jun 3rd 2017 at 7:31:44 AM

I don't expect an improvement from the manga, just hyper rationalization.

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#27373: Jun 3rd 2017 at 7:34:28 AM

Didn't Krillin hit some sort of super-vague boost during the land of fears trial, or whatever that was?

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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#27375: Jun 3rd 2017 at 8:08:28 AM

That sounds like a Psychonauts level.

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