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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#26851: May 12th 2017 at 5:28:14 PM

Indeed. Tien won became the champion, though he didn't really beat Goku.

Vegeta won the battle, but ultimately lost the won.

Still, that's a very small group they are part of who can say they beat Goku in a fight (alongside Cell himself soon enough, and Master Roshi, who's victory is arguably the most legitimate).

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#26852: May 12th 2017 at 5:29:50 PM

It's not like Vegeta himself counts that as a win even in the unabridged version. Maybe he should, and Goku definitely does, but eh.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#26853: May 12th 2017 at 5:31:05 PM

I mean, Goku's power level was over 8000, but Gohan, Krillin and Yajirobe were all weaker than Nappa, so. He might not have counted them.

The point is that Vegeta lost to Goku plus three flies.

And one of the things that hurt Vegeta, in fact the only move Krillin used that hurt Vegeta, (besides Solar Flare) was a Spirit Bomb that Goku started charging, so.

And the biggest thing Gohan contributed was turning Great Ape because of a Power Ball that Vegeta made while fighting Goku.

So.

...Y'know, speaking of that power ball, a more introspective Vegeta might have realized he's his own worst enemy.

He used up all his ki making it, and then the enemy used it against him.

Really, the only thing it proves is that Vegeta can beat Vegeta.

edited 12th May '17 5:34:01 PM by unnoun

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#26854: May 12th 2017 at 5:34:26 PM

...Y'know, speaking of that power ball, a more introspective Vegeta might have realized he's his own worst enemy.

...This is true. That's pretty much Vegeta across the entirety of Z.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#26855: May 12th 2017 at 5:34:51 PM

There's no way he could have predicted that chain of events.

If Vegeta hadn't gone monkey than Goku might have pulled through that blast and gone on to use the Genki Dama himself.

The real reason that win doesn't matter to Vegeta is probably because Goku was beneath him back then. When he gets to Namek, he's totally jovial about how rough that was for him, because he doesn't care. It was only when Goku surpassed him (and his characterization declining) that it became a problem. He had to beat the Kakarot who surpassed him, not the weakling he left broken on Earth.

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#26856: May 12th 2017 at 5:41:48 PM

Just popping in to say they used We Are Number One for the Cell clones. Holy shit.

The legend has returned.
EchoingSilence Since: Jun, 2013
#26857: May 12th 2017 at 5:44:31 PM

Do you know what I love? The fact that Cell and Goku can perfectly communicate with each other.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#26858: May 12th 2017 at 5:45:06 PM

I was so glad for Tien pointing out how stupid it was for Cell to use Multiform here. Or for anyone to. Ever. It's a proven-shitty technique that Toei likes trotting out every chance they get.

I don't remember if this instance is Toei's fault. Pretty sure it is, but I can't recall for certain. Whether it is or isn't, though, it's still a bad technique.

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EchoingSilence Since: Jun, 2013
#26859: May 12th 2017 at 5:47:11 PM

Cell continues to be strangely nice to Yamcha. Such as pointing out when Tien has done a Stealth Insult.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#26860: May 12th 2017 at 5:48:59 PM

You know what's stupid? I remember in the dub they pointed out that the Multiform split Cell's power into four and then Piccolo said that it looked like Cell had overcome that weakness.

1) HOW?

2) Then Goku would die.

My various fanfics.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#26861: May 12th 2017 at 5:49:36 PM

Like, let's say Gohan post-Senzu and Zenkai is 4000 in base. No evidence to support that. His Masenko against Nappa was only 2800.

Krillin is at 1770. Yajirobe is 970.

8000 is bigger than 6740. So Goku's the bigger threat. And the combined total is still less than Vegeta's maximum.

In no interpretation of that fight was Vegeta the winner, certainly not Vegeta's, because all the people he wanted dead survived. He was at the mercy of Krillin and a sword that wouldn't have broken against his skin because of how weak he was by that point.

Also, are Saiyan tails that much weaker than the rest of them? Because Yajirobe's sword going through a tail with a Power Level of 180,000, when a power level of 10 stops a bullet to the face.

Like, that's got to be good craftsmanship.

Anyway, if Vegeta lost, that raises the question of who he lost to.

Goku told Krillin to let him go, so. Vegeta's life rested solely on Goku's word and decision there.

And losing to Krillin, Yajirobe and Gohan would be more embarrassing than losing to Goku.

[up] would they be able to tell the difference tho Cell was holding back, and they couldn't follow the fight either way.

edited 12th May '17 5:54:48 PM by unnoun

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#26862: May 12th 2017 at 5:49:50 PM

In the anime they just had Tien say that each clone remained and full-power and that Cell has mastered it better than he ever could.

And I wonder if Tien's a dick to Yamcha because that and his "hate boner" with Vegeta are the only things he has to feel good about with himself?

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#26863: May 12th 2017 at 5:50:18 PM

Cell's use of the Multiform Technique is padding, yes.

This episode was okay. I really wish Goku VS Cell had been one and done and the constant cuts to Satan kinda hurt the flow.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#26864: May 12th 2017 at 5:51:00 PM

Speaking of, while the punchline to the ringout joke was Yamcha forgetting they can fly and setting up the Stealth Insult gag to follow, I was more amused by Yamcha somehow being under the impression that Cell would actually care about being rung out. Like this event was really going to end in,

  • Goku: Ha! You touched the ground. That means I've won, Cell.
  • Cell: So it does. Good game, Son Goku. You have bested me. The Earth is now safe from all harm forever.
  • Goku: Woohoo! I won another tournament! Want to go lift weights and be best buddies?
  • Cell: And how!
  • Goku: Vegeta, you've been replaced!
  • Vegeta: ...this bothers me more than I'm comfortable with.

edited 12th May '17 5:52:54 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
EchoingSilence Since: Jun, 2013
#26865: May 12th 2017 at 5:52:01 PM

I still wanna know, why is Mr. Perfect Cell so nice to Yamcha?

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#26866: May 12th 2017 at 5:52:40 PM

Somebody has to be.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#26867: May 12th 2017 at 5:52:43 PM

Because he committed suicide?

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#26869: May 12th 2017 at 6:00:13 PM

And I wonder if Tien's a dick to Yamcha because that and his "hate boner" with Vegeta are the only things he has to feel good about with himself?

I think that's been the real joke for a while now. Or at least part of it.

In the anime they just had Tien say that each clone remained and full-power and that Cell has mastered it better than he ever could.

I mean, would Tien know Cell's full power though?

All the spectators who aren't Gohan know is that it's bigger than theirs.

Cell is definitely holding back to Goku's level, warming up, but seemingly assumes that Goku is doing the same.

Gohan also assumes Goku is holding back. But really, Goku's giving his all.

Even Cell assumes Goku's hiding something because he's Goku, and the come from behind victory is a thing he does. And surely the great Son Goku wouldn't be this weak, right?

It's all a game to him. A story, an epic for the ages. Cell is, in some respects, a fan of Dragon Ball.

And also the worst Mary Sue. Literally made of everyone's DNA. Think about it.

edited 12th May '17 6:08:02 PM by unnoun

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#26870: May 12th 2017 at 6:07:38 PM

I mean, presumably he could sense that all of the Cells registered at the same power as the original.

Of course, an easy explanation for that is what you said about Cell holding a shit ton back and most of them not realizing it, but I was just relaying how the scene went.

edited 12th May '17 6:08:05 PM by LSBK

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#26871: May 12th 2017 at 6:10:43 PM

My favorite thing in maybe the entire series about power levels is actually the Cell Games.

Gohan is watching and doesn't get why everyone is so impressed by the fight because it's nothing to him.

Gohan assumes Goku's holding back because that's the only explanation for why Goku is moving so slow. And the idea that Gohan surpassed his father just. Doesn't even occur to him.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#26872: May 12th 2017 at 6:13:31 PM

Yeah. That's a super important detail. A lot of people assume that Goku's plan was for Gohan to become a Super Saiyan 2. It wasn't. Gohan didn't even need to. That's the whole point of his confusion in this fight. Gohan was already a match for Perfect Cell.

Getting the most effective rage boost in the series short of Goku on Namek and doubling his power on the spot was just a bonus.

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#26873: May 12th 2017 at 6:15:18 PM

I mean, part of that is that the anime added in a scene that made it seem like Gohan going Super Saiyan 2 was the plan for some reason.

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#26874: May 12th 2017 at 6:17:35 PM

Oh, huh. Wonder how long they're gonna stretch it out for then.

Given all of Cell's innuendo, I'd say 69 would be fitting, but I doubt it goes that long.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#26875: May 12th 2017 at 6:19:13 PM

I was so glad for Tien pointing out how stupid it was for Cell to use Multiform here. Or for anyone to. Ever. It's a proven-shitty technique that Toei likes trotting out every chance they get.

I don't remember if this instance is Toei's fault. Pretty sure it is, but I can't recall for certain. Whether it is or isn't, though, it's still a bad technique.

Yeah, any instance of it appearing after Ten used it is padding. Because when Ten used it, Goku immediately pointed out how shitty it was - and even Ten knew, but was hoping the gimmick factor would be enough for him to take out Goku before he saw through it. So after that it was abandoned.

In no interpretation of that fight was Vegeta the winner, certainly not Vegeta's, because all the people he wanted dead survived. He was at the mercy of Krillin and a sword that wouldn't have broken against his skin because of how weak he was by that point.

Also, are Saiyan tails that much weaker than the rest of them? Because Yajirobe's sword going through a tail with a Power Level of 180,000, when a power level of 10 stops a bullet to the face.

Like, that's got to be good craftsmanship.

Anyway, if Vegeta lost, that raises the question of who he lost to.

Goku told Krillin to let him go, so. Vegeta's life rested solely on Goku's word and decision there.

And losing to Krillin, Yajirobe and Gohan would be more embarrassing than losing to Goku.

This is getting really nitpicky and completely ignores that Goku challenged Vegeta to a fight, then admitted defeated. At that point the others jumped in and dogpiled him. A victory for Earth, but a loss for Goku.

And he wasn't humiliated by it. At the time, he thought it ridiculous that he had to retreat, then he got his zenkai and thought "best day ever".


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