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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#26726: May 4th 2017 at 7:27:36 AM

The increasing power scale doesn't actually preclude good fighting choreography or interesting ki techniques.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#26727: May 4th 2017 at 7:36:39 AM

Power levels have literally always been a thing, from the moment Goku first tanked a bullet between the eyes with his superior might.

edited 4th May '17 7:38:13 AM by TobiasDrake

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TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#26728: May 4th 2017 at 7:37:23 AM

[up][up] I mean, it does and it doesn't. As I've mentioned before, Dragon Ball Super has had plenty of interesting and well-choreographed fights, and the power scale there is even greater than it was in Z.

But it seemed like for a while in Z, fights would just boil down to which Flying Brick has the higher power level. Like, compare Goku's fight against Perfect Cell at the Cell Games to his fight against Jackie Chun at the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai. The stakes are way higher in the former, but the latter is a lot more fun (at least, in my opinion).

edited 4th May '17 7:37:34 AM by TyeDyeWildebeest

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#26729: May 4th 2017 at 7:38:05 AM

Just saying, Goku would've never gotten out of Tenshinhan's four armed hold if he didn't have a tail to hit Ten in the face.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#26730: May 4th 2017 at 7:39:03 AM

Seriously, Goku won a lot of fights in the early days by just being ridiculously, insanely, impossibly powerful. It was kind of his thing. Goku outmuscles a thing that he shouldn't be able to outmuscle and everyone goes "O.O" and remarks on how impossible it is that a child could be this strong.

EDIT: Remember the assault on Red Ribbon HQ? None of that was special techniques and martial skills.

edited 4th May '17 7:40:37 AM by TobiasDrake

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TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#26731: May 4th 2017 at 7:52:40 AM

[up] I get that- and we've discussed this before, I think. But there were some exceptions (remember Buyon?), and the fight choreography could get pretty creative, when Goku was fighting an opponent who was actually near his level (Nam, Jackie Chun, Tenshinhan, Piccolo Jr.).

Another thing I've noticed is that the fights in Dragon Ball were choreographed with a greater emphasis on, you know, real martial arts. I remember during the fight between Yamcha and Kami/Hero, Yamcha throws a flurry of punches at Kami, and he just effortlessly blocks them and counters with a sweep to Yamcha's leg. He then scolds Yamcha for leaving his legs unprotected.

That kind of thing would never happen in Z. Could you imagine Recoome lecturing Vegeta for leaving his legs exposed? It'd be ridiculous.

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Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#26732: May 4th 2017 at 7:59:10 AM

Well also everyone flies all the time, making you wonder why some of them even HAVE legs other than to kick things.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#26733: May 4th 2017 at 8:00:17 AM

It literally happens with your example. After dropping him with a gut-punch, Goku criticizes Recoome for the fact that his dumb Ultra Fighting Bomber pose leaves him completely open to attack.

EDIT: I mean, I do get what you're saiyan, but you picked about the worst example for it. [lol] Oasis in a desert, that was.

edited 4th May '17 8:02:30 AM by TobiasDrake

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TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#26734: May 4th 2017 at 8:04:42 AM

Oh, geez, I hadn't thought of that. Derp. tongue

TBF it was partially because nobody expected Goku to be that fast. And in my defense, I was thinking about Vegeta's fight with Recoome, not Goku's.

edited 4th May '17 8:06:45 AM by TyeDyeWildebeest

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#26735: May 4th 2017 at 8:14:38 AM

I wish they made a bigger deal out of characters who can't sense energy. It's a glaring vulnerability for all of Frieza's forces including the big man himself, plus Androids 17 and 18 - who, themselves, cannot be sensed - but it rarely comes up in combat.

Goku uses it against Frieza one time, distracting him in a really clever gambit with a pair of controlled Kamehamehas before landing a sneak attack on him, and then it never comes up again. I feel like the ability to land sneak attacks on a character should be a game-changing distinction.

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Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#26736: May 4th 2017 at 8:19:46 AM

Considering how much Toriyama hates power levels, it's kind of annoying that the determining factor of who wins a fight is still usually power levels.

Or some variation of the Spirit Bomb.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#26737: May 4th 2017 at 8:32:49 AM

Toriyama's point about power levels were the scouter numbers themselves being meaningless and over-relied on. He proved this multiples times with the same basic trick of lowering your power to fool the scoters.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#26738: May 4th 2017 at 8:33:05 AM

The Genki-Dama has literally only ever won a fight once.

It's Toei that kept spamming it as the ultimate win condition in their movies and GT.

edited 4th May '17 8:33:32 AM by TobiasDrake

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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#26740: May 4th 2017 at 8:34:35 AM

Barely, he was still fighting after

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#26741: May 4th 2017 at 8:35:10 AM

No, it didn't. It hurt him, but so did a lot of other things. Vegeta went down to a dogpile.

After the Genki-Dama, he got right back up and kept stomping.

edited 4th May '17 8:35:23 AM by TobiasDrake

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Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#26742: May 4th 2017 at 9:02:06 AM

The Genki-Dama has literally only ever won a fight once.

It worked on Zamasu! Sort of. I mean he came back immediately afterwards, but still.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#26743: May 4th 2017 at 9:08:41 AM

They're a weak point, remember?

Goku, Vegeta and Nappa overcame it. So it stopped being a weak point.

Seriously, Goku won a lot of fights in the early days by just being ridiculously, insanely, impossibly powerful. It was kind of his thing. Goku outmuscles a thing that he shouldn't be able to outmuscle and everyone goes "O.O" and remarks on how impossible it is that a child could be this strong. EDIT: Remember the assault on Red Ribbon HQ? None of that was special techniques and martial skills.

Heh. Yeah. In fact, while I forgot to mention it, I more or less said the same thing in the main thread...only minutes before coming to this one.

Even if you have a way to attack Goku that doesn't rely on power, he'll just No-Sell it somehow in a completely different way (like the Devilmite beam).

EDIT: I mean, I do get what you're saiyan, but you picked about the worst example for it. [lol] Oasis in a desert, that was.

.... I want to hear you admit it. I want to hear it in your own words what you did. I ain't saying a thing. Just come clean.

edited 4th May '17 10:42:47 AM by HandsomeRob

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#26744: May 4th 2017 at 10:04:47 AM

Fine, it's true. It's all true. I did, in fact, pick Rob's pocket while he was sputtering in outrage over that pun.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#26746: May 4th 2017 at 3:13:49 PM

The increasing power scale doesn't actually preclude good fighting choreography or interesting ki techniques.

Yes it did. In between the Vegeta fight and Gotenks vs Buu we literally got nothing new or creative, except for Goku pulling the Picard Maneuver on Cell.

Before that techniques got really creative and most Im Not Left Handed moments were about skills and getting creative with them and not just same moves but more power.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#26747: May 4th 2017 at 3:17:07 PM

I meant conceptually nothing you said does. It's obvious Dragon Ball doesn't, but that's because the writer didn't feel like it.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#26748: May 4th 2017 at 3:22:49 PM

The problem with a Flying Brick fight is that the environment the fight happens in becomes largely meaningless. Flight means no one has to worry about footing, balance, high ground vs. low ground, or anything like that, and being super durable means there's little point in trying to hurt your opponent with nearby objects, since those might as well be tissue paper.

edited 4th May '17 3:23:22 PM by RavenWilder

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#26749: May 4th 2017 at 3:40:24 PM

You could try hitting people with suns or black holes.

Or one of your other opponents.

Or one of your own allies.

edited 4th May '17 3:55:28 PM by unnoun

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#26750: May 4th 2017 at 5:13:47 PM

Or some random civilians.

Don't just Kick the Dog. Kick the Dog at the other dude.tongue

...yes. I am a horrible person? Why do you ask?

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