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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#26526: Apr 28th 2017 at 12:15:06 PM

Not really, 18 can't flee from the sky without Cell noticing, and she makes it clear she's not leaving 16, who can't go underwater.

17 did act a bit stupid when he insisted as staying to fight Cell when he thought 16 weakened him enough, but that's supposed to be viewed as stupid.

edited 28th Apr '17 12:15:38 PM by LSBK

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#26527: Apr 28th 2017 at 12:16:28 PM

That it's supposed to be viewed as stupid does not disqualify it from being stupid. Why would it?

Similarly, 18 refusing to leave 16 was stupid. Cell wasn't after him. He was after her. Being near 16 actually put him in more danger.

There are numerous points throughout the fight where 17 and 18 should have just left, but they don't. They stay and watch Cell punch and get punched.

edited 28th Apr '17 12:17:19 PM by TobiasDrake

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#26528: Apr 28th 2017 at 12:20:11 PM

Because when people go "this is so stupid!" they act as if the characters are acting without proper reasoning and are just gawking for the hell of it. Something TFS is also guilty off.

Whether you agree with their decisions or not pretending that it was just a matter of "run away" is unfair.

And I never said 17's actions actually being viewed as stupid is supposed to make them not be stupid, I don't know where you got that from.

Also, disagree with 16 being safer if she's not around. Either Cell kills him by accident or vindictively for getting in his way.

edited 28th Apr '17 12:23:02 PM by LSBK

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#26529: Apr 28th 2017 at 12:28:29 PM

It was totally a matter of "Run away". The fact is that Cell can't track them. Their ki signatures cannot be sensed. The only way he could find them was by seeing them with his eyes. He only found them then and there in the first place by sensing Piccolo during his fight with 17.

All they needed to do is get a sufficient distance away. They could have done this while Piccolo was fighting Cell. They could have done it while 16 was fighting Cell. 18 could have done it while Vegeta or Trunks was fighting Cell. There are multiple times when Cell is too preoccupied to pursue, but they don't just leave.

Cell was able to absorb them because they stuck around like morons waiting to be absorbed.

edited 28th Apr '17 12:29:08 PM by TobiasDrake

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#26530: Apr 28th 2017 at 12:32:15 PM

What he did was he stung Cell. Like a bee, complete with ripping off his stinger in the process. It was a minor prick. Didn't actually do much harm, but bugged the crap out of him.

That's a good way to look at it. In Abridged Cell's mind, Tien shouldn't have even been able to do as little as he did. Sure, he wasn't perfect yet, but the fact that Tien was even able to do more than just die in seconds and then can be all smug about it probably gets on his nerves.

It's silly and it's petty, but Cell is kinda like that.

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#26531: Apr 28th 2017 at 12:33:10 PM

You mean while Cell was pounding Piccolo into the ground, there was no way that Piccolo was going to be an adequate distraction. Hilariously enough, he was in a worse position to stall than the laughably much weaker Tien.

16 is separate matter but there it would probably be better to argue for them to help instead of run away. Either way, abandoning each other is the kind of thing they do.

edited 28th Apr '17 12:34:12 PM by LSBK

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#26532: Apr 28th 2017 at 12:35:03 PM

And I never said 17's actions actually being viewed as stupid is supposed to make them not be stupid, I don't know where you got that from.

The fact that you mentioned it at all makes it sound like it's supposed to be a refutation of something.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#26533: Apr 28th 2017 at 12:37:25 PM

I mentioned it because it was a bad decision on the part of the characters, that was absolutely treated as a bad decision, and goes against the narrative of "these characters are all just idiots but the story never calls them on it."

I thought I phrased it clear enough for that.

Edit: But my general point is, people can make poor decisions, but that's different from "gawking like an idiot". There were other things being considered during that situation because, surprisingly, people don't always think clearly in high danger situations.

It's not a question of whether it would have been better if 17 or 18 had run away, it's Tobias' framing of the matter and ignoring how and why they acted like they did.

edited 28th Apr '17 12:44:26 PM by LSBK

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#26534: Apr 28th 2017 at 12:42:47 PM

I'm gonna have to agree that running away is what they should have done.

Then again, I get the feeling 17 never fully grasped the risk. I mean, Piccolo was only just barely his equal, and that's a fight that he'd have likely won through pure attrition.

I get the feeling he never really understood that Cell was infinitely stronger than he was, because the idea of someone surpassing him by that much was totally foreign to him.

....This of course, completely ignores that 16 was revealed to be far more powerful than him as well.

....well shit. That theory is dead. Anyone else got some ideas.

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Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#26535: Apr 28th 2017 at 12:45:15 PM

[up][up]Oh I see. You were refuting "no one is ever called out for being an idiot", but people got confused because no one was saying that, only "that section of the story is characters making many bad decisions in a row".

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#26536: Apr 28th 2017 at 12:47:48 PM

[up]That's mostly right. Specifically, I'm arguing against Tobias' specific framing of the bad decisions and such, which tends to be pretty common with talking about the Cell Saga with him.

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#26537: Apr 28th 2017 at 4:17:03 PM

I kind of want Tenshinhan's 'game' to continue onwards to his intervention in the Buu Saga, only for Super Buu to not give a crap and just kick him down, showing Tenshinhan's folly for messing around with forces beyond his weight class, while also re-establishing that Buu doesn't have the same arrogance and ego hangups that Vegeta and Cell do.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#26538: Apr 28th 2017 at 4:35:15 PM

Heh. That could work actually.

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Cross (Don’t ask)
#26539: Apr 28th 2017 at 4:50:46 PM

That won't work since his 'game' doesn't simply transfer.

edited 28th Apr '17 4:53:16 PM by Cross

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#26540: Apr 28th 2017 at 4:51:45 PM

Oh right. He has to do something first. It won't work with Buu, because to Buu, Tien is just some random dude showing up out of nowhere.

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Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
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#26541: Apr 28th 2017 at 5:32:54 PM

Ten didn't do anything against Vegeta, either, other than insult him.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#26542: Apr 28th 2017 at 6:57:01 PM
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#26543: Apr 28th 2017 at 7:01:05 PM

Well yeah, but Tien and Vegeta were in a bunch of scenes together so their rapport could get built up. You couldn't make a similar connection with Tien and Buu.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#26544: Apr 29th 2017 at 1:24:21 AM

Also, Tenshinhan's game works because it's him not being afraid and remaining steadfast against enemies who find that sort of behavior in their inferiors insulting. They can't cow or break him, and that pisses them off, which amuses him.

If he did that against Buu, he'd be dead, yeah, but he wouldn't lose. He'd only lose if someone actually did manage to break him. He'd just... die, without a punchline.

edited 29th Apr '17 1:24:40 AM by KnownUnknown

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
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#26545: Apr 29th 2017 at 1:30:23 AM

That would be the point, though. I'm imagining Tenshinhan deflecting the blast aimed for Gohan, then Ten snarks at Buu, trying to bait him into his game, but Buu just brushes it off and knocks him aside without taking the bait to even start his game.

edited 29th Apr '17 1:31:26 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#26546: Apr 29th 2017 at 1:41:40 AM

The joke works because Tenshinhan is baiting characters he already has hooked, though.

I could see that set up, with him showing up against a villain and refusing to back down. And then dying. But that way, it's more of a "heroically accomplishing nothing" gag, like with Chiaotzu.

edited 29th Apr '17 1:43:42 AM by KnownUnknown

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#26547: Apr 29th 2017 at 5:12:25 AM

The pay-off for Tien's game (and for Yamcha's character development) is likely to come during the Cell-Gohan Kamehameha when everybody who's sort of useless tries to distract Cell.

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#26548: Apr 29th 2017 at 7:25:15 AM

Depends on if they favor the anime or manga for that. In the manga, it's just Vegeta. The anime added everyone else to that scene as yet another way they tried to give the rest of the cast more value.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#26549: Apr 29th 2017 at 8:22:52 AM

Then they'll probably have them all get blasted before they can even try.

Abridged tends to put even greater emphasis on the uselessness of everyone else for comedic effect and all if at all possible.

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Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#26550: Apr 29th 2017 at 7:34:20 PM

....This of course, completely ignores that 16 was revealed to be far more powerful than him as well.

....well shit. That theory is dead. Anyone else got some ideas.

17 never knew 16 was that much stronger than him. Hell, I doubt he thought 16 was stronger at all. 16 made a point of never fighting until Cel. 17 and18 even asked him to, so they could see what he was capable of, but he refused.

Anyway. I agree 17 was being an idiot, but I agree LSBK that this is not bad storytelling. That is characters doing what they do. As Rob said, 17 never really had an opportunity to grasp exactly how bad the situation was. He can't sense ki and he never fought anyone actually stronger than him, so it was all new to him. 18 was similar of course, but her own "bad decision" (i.e. not levying 16) is something else. I frankly agree with LSBK again here, there is no telling this is a real bad decision at all. There is no guarantee Cell wouldn't just kill 16 if he found him, so it make sense she would want to keep near him, so she could help him to flee or hide.

That said, I see Tobias point. It is a long chain of events that only really happened because everyone but Cell (and Tenshinhan) continuously fucked up. At multiple points if the other characters had taken any single other decision, the whole thing would have ended badly for Cell. I don't think it is as simple as just saying "they all acted like idiots", it is still an annoying chain that doesn't really paints Cell as a real threat as much as a lucky guy. It doesn't help he only found 18 in a stroke of luck (seriously, he jut randomly looked at her direction). As a result, he become Perfect Cell comes off as a bit undeserved (and quite rushed, which was the real life reason).

edited 29th Apr '17 7:34:33 PM by Heatth


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