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purplefishman Misanthrope Supreme from Ganzir Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Misanthrope Supreme
#2601: Jan 6th 2013 at 1:28:32 PM

Dunno where to put that, so I'm talking about it here : the ending of "two saiyans play : Magicka part 1" killed me. "WE ARE THE BEST MAGES EVER !!!" indeed [lol]

edited 6th Jan '13 1:55:19 PM by purplefishman

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#2602: Jan 6th 2013 at 3:36:02 PM

I only ever remember Freeza hitting him when he used that shield thing to charge through Goku's Kamehameha. Unless you're counting the beginning when Goku let Freeza hit him, but I wouldn't.

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#2603: Jan 6th 2013 at 3:42:02 PM

Official multipliers? Ugh. Startin' to think it was a real good thing that they stopped talking about power levels as concrete numbers after Frieze claimed his second form's to be a million.

Wait, starting? Sorry. Continuing.

I have a message from another time...
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#2604: Jan 6th 2013 at 3:47:44 PM

Errr what's wrong with knowing how much a transformation like Super Saiyan 2 increases power?

Spirit Pretty flower from America Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Hooked on a feeling
Pretty flower
#2605: Jan 6th 2013 at 3:50:55 PM

Because power levels are bullshit.

Not to say knowing and discussing that stuff isn't a fun way to pass time, but when you start crunching numbers and comparing them, like what happened a couple pages back, it then becomes an exercise in futility.

edited 6th Jan '13 3:51:25 PM by Spirit

#IceBearForPresident
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#2606: Jan 6th 2013 at 3:52:13 PM

Seems weird to think of it as a concrete multiplier.

Especially when one's power can still fluctuate up and down depending on the situation.

I mean, I suppose if it's considered to be the same sort of transformation tha Frieza or Zarbon could do...

Wasn't it a major point in the first few arcs that the earthlings (and Goku, and eventually Vegeta) were a bit different in that their power could fluctuate in that manner?

Overall though, putting absolute numbers to power level just starts sounding ridiculous when one gets to sufficiently insanely-big numbers.

I have a message from another time...
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#2607: Jan 6th 2013 at 3:58:47 PM

I don't really see the absolute multipliers working out so well.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#2608: Jan 6th 2013 at 4:00:03 PM

It makes sense for the species that don't fluctuate their energy up and down like the earthlings can do (I can totally imagine Freiza's or Zarbon's transformaions being absolute multipliers), but not so much for fighters who can.

I have a message from another time...
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#2609: Jan 6th 2013 at 4:07:00 PM

They could fluctuate it but they still had a "base" level that was normal for them. By controlling their ki they can suppress it below their base level, or briefly go beyond it with techniques like the Kamehameha (which only affects the power of the technique). Kaio-ken and the Super Saiyan forms multiply the baseline ki, which is why we have Kaio-ken x2, x3, etc. That's the multiplier.

A common misconception is that characters can just power-up above their base/maximum, which they can't. What they do in the show is lower their ki to below their base (to avoid detection, hide their true strength, reduce energy usage, etc.) and then raise it back up to maximum when they need to.

So they can't just fluctuate up and down willy-nilly. They need transformations/kaio-ken to increase their maximum.

As for those of us who create battle power lists, we just do it for fun. It doesn't hurt anyone and there's plenty of Battle Powers given in the various guides to build from.

edited 6th Jan '13 4:08:37 PM by Saiga

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#2610: Jan 6th 2013 at 4:55:44 PM

Whether they have real numbers or not it's pretty much fact that Vegito/Gogeta are the strongest character(s), correct?

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#2611: Jan 6th 2013 at 4:59:43 PM

Manga-wise, Vegetto would be. I don't think Gogeta would be as strong though.

Anime-wise SS3 Goku is probably stronger because Toei love him, GT-wise base Goku is the strongest character.

Oh and the new movie is hyping up the villain as "the strongest being in the history of Z" and he'll probably lose to Super Saiyan Goku or something.

edited 6th Jan '13 5:00:03 PM by Saiga

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#2612: Jan 6th 2013 at 5:06:06 PM

Well, obviously Vegito manga-wise since Gogeta doesn't exist in the manga. I'd assume Gogeta and Vegito are about equal in power aside from differences due to time period and zenkai boosts and the like, seeing as they're the same fusion just a different method of reaching it.

GT-wise the strongest is obviously Old Man Krillin. He defeated GT Goku.

edited 6th Jan '13 5:07:02 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#2613: Jan 6th 2013 at 5:07:28 PM

Do you think Hercule could be taught to use Ki? I mean, it's not like it's just aliens who knew that stuff...

I have a message from another time...
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#2614: Jan 6th 2013 at 5:09:22 PM

Yes, he's just too stupid and stubborn to learn probably.

Mr. Satan-style Kamehameha would be awesome though.

You know what's funny and makes me giggle somewhat? Goku and Mr. Satan are, once Gohan and Videl marry, in-laws. Hee hee hee.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#2615: Jan 6th 2013 at 5:10:15 PM

[up][up][up] The different methods mean different results, though. Potara was said to be stronger, and look at the massive difference between Gotenks and Vegetto. Vegetto is over 16x stronger than Gotenks, I don't think you could say the same for Goku and Goten. Lots of people may underrate Goten but he's stronger than most people give him credit for. As a Super Saiyan he's at least stronger than #18.

[up][up] Anyone can.

edited 6th Jan '13 5:10:29 PM by Saiga

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#2616: Jan 6th 2013 at 5:11:43 PM

I thought when it was said that Potara was a stronger fusion method that meant that it was permanent and instantaneous, unlike the dance that wears off and requires precision. Like, the fusion method itself is superior, not the fusion result.

Is Goten stronger than 18? She seemed able to keep up with him and Trunks to at least some degree. Or did the fight end right after they went super-saiyan? And is that anime filler, no less?

edited 6th Jan '13 5:12:50 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#2617: Jan 6th 2013 at 5:17:49 PM

I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure Old Kaioshin said it produced a better result as one of the perks other than it being permanent.

And Goten/Trunks are stronger (guidebooks, yo!). Even without the guides, once they turn Super Saiyan, they both acknowledge that they're much stronger and so decide to end things with a ki blast. Goten tells Trunks to be careful, and Trunks says if he holds back enough they won't kill her. Once he fires the held back blast it misses 18 and she panics and realises she has to end the fight immediately, so she disqualifies them.

The fight is in the manga but I don't know if the anime adds more to it.

edited 6th Jan '13 5:18:52 PM by Saiga

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#2618: Jan 6th 2013 at 5:20:13 PM

Ah, thank you.

I wonder, can she get stronger through training or is her artificially-induced android power limited like that?

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#2619: Jan 6th 2013 at 5:21:18 PM

She's technically still human, so she should still be able to practice with Ki in addition to android stuff.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#2620: Jan 6th 2013 at 5:22:09 PM

She doesn't have ki, though. Like, at all.

So I don't think she could.

edited 6th Jan '13 5:22:19 PM by Saiga

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#2621: Jan 6th 2013 at 5:24:22 PM

...Right. Forgot they couldn't sense her.

...Odd. She should be dead in that case, from a biological standpoint. Pregnancy shouldn't really be possible. Or maybe I'm taking life energy too literally.

edited 6th Jan '13 5:24:50 PM by unnoun

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#2622: Jan 6th 2013 at 5:24:26 PM

Well, she could train herself the same way Krillin and Tien and that other guy did. She'd just be starting fresh, unless her android abilities can boost that somehow.

I'm sure she has as much ki as any ordinary human does, at least (That is to say, not much without training). 17 was able to contribute to the Super Spirit Bomb despite being an android and IIRC that's ki.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#2623: Jan 6th 2013 at 5:30:22 PM

We don't know if 17 was able to contribute, actually. He said he would and raised his hand, but who knows if anything actually happened?

The Z Fighters can't sense the Androids at all, so they shouldn't have ki. That or their ki sensing just wasn't good enough to pick out their human ki, but Goku was able to pick out Bulma's ki from a distance in the Boo Arc.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#2624: Jan 6th 2013 at 5:34:26 PM

Well, Goku is probably familiar with Bulma's ki since they've been friends since, like, the beginning. So to Goku and everyone else 17 and 18's standard-human ki is probably just not familiar or strong enough for them to recognize and detect.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#2625: Jan 6th 2013 at 5:36:35 PM

[up][up] ...Are we really sure they couldn't be sensed at all? If I recall correctly, most of their problems were them trying to figure out exactly where the Androids were. And they didn't know 17 and 18 very well in that saga.

Picking up a tiny human ki that you aren't familiar with is very hard probably. Did that get mentioned again later in the Buu Saga?

Ninja'd.

edited 6th Jan '13 5:37:01 PM by unnoun


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