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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#26201: Apr 11th 2017 at 12:26:57 PM

Super Saiyan isn't a set power, it's just a multiplier. Make Goku a Super Saiyan when we first meet him and he's still shit compared to basically everything off Earth.

On that note:

FUN FACT: If Goku had become a Super Saiyan after arriving on Namek without first getting his body broken and receiving a zenkai from Captain Ginyu, his battle power would have shot up to 4.5 million!

Remember how one-sided that fight with Frieza was before he transformed? Goku was using the Kaioken x10 at the time, putting his battle power at a steady 30 million. Without that zenkai, the legendary Super Saiyan might just barely have been a match for Frieza's third form.

edited 11th Apr '17 12:27:47 PM by TobiasDrake

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Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#26202: Apr 11th 2017 at 1:10:02 PM

Well with Super Saiyan transformations getting handed out like a bargain basement sale, there's a certain appeal in The Legendary Super Saiyan. Plus everyone loves a good curbstomp.

why should being a Super Saiyan only be something that happens every thousand years or something? Plus, there were only like six.

Super Saiyan isn't a set power

Because Vegeta explicitly describes it as a mythical ability exclusive to the Saiyan race and then turns out to be completely wrong. So Last Season isn't exactly a good trope.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#26203: Apr 11th 2017 at 1:11:38 PM

How in the world did he turn out to be wrong? What non-Saiyan Super Saiyans have there been? And Vegeta said nothing about there being "one every thousand years" or whatever, just that the last one was from a thousand years ago.

edited 11th Apr '17 1:12:47 PM by LSBK

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#26204: Apr 11th 2017 at 1:41:48 PM

I'll recant that. I just looked up the scene and Vegeta didn't actually believe it existed at first. And then the Wiki even points out:

Contrary to popular belief, in the Frieza Saga, Vegeta does not state that a Super Saiyan appears every 1000 years, but rather that the last one appeared 1000 years ago (3000 in the English dub and possibly Bardock). It is mentioned, however, in Daizenshuu 6 and by Goku in the PSP game Dragon Ball Z: Shin Budokai.

Vegeta didn't say that a Super Saiyan can only appear every 1,000 years. There's nothing to fix, like you said.

But LSSJ is nice to have is because it's a Hand Wave for the original Super Saiyan apparently destroying themselves. We just had to assume that they were as strong as Goku but couldn't deal with it. That's kind of lame.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#26205: Apr 11th 2017 at 1:49:53 PM

What's lame about it? Goku has something that other Saiyans don't: he's an expert martial artist. Also, a master of the Kaioken, a technique which amplifies his power at a taxing cost to his body. He also repeatedly demonstrates the ability to manipulate his battle power in a way that no one else in the series can.

Goku has the discipline, skill, and practical experience necessary to believably control the Super Saiyan form without destroying himself. It's Vegeta that's the problem.

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Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#26206: Apr 11th 2017 at 2:01:02 PM

And then Goten. And Kid Trunks. And Goku Jr. And humans with a 1/1000th Saiyan DNA in them.

More importantly, a legendary form belonging to an ancient, near-extinct race of warrior space monkeys that hasn't been seen in a 1,000 years, a legend so graphic that even Frieza feared it, wiping out a portion of his own private mercenary force just to ensure it wouldn't come to fruition... this form was SO UGLY, EVERYONE DIED DANGEROUS THE ORIGINAL WIELDER DIED FROM IT.

The end.

What.

What happened? Who was this guy? Why would such a powerful, terrible creature be forgotten to the annals of Saiyan history (to the point that a king's son would believe it a myth), but someone like Beerus who sleeps for centuries and shows up for one or two of them is immediately treated with respect by the acting king?

How would he even kill himself? If he's at Goku's level he's bench-pressing planets, immune to bullets, and presumably able to fly (every other Saiyan we've seen has figured it out sooner or later, with the exception of Goten). I guess they blew up the planet they were on. Yeah, that's satisfactory.

  • Having an off-screen death like that is always disappointing no matter how you slice it.
  • Goku's expertise vs the original's complete lack of traits doesn't make the latter's obscurity any better.
  • Why would Frieza be scared of a Saiyan who was destroyed by his or her... let's be honest, his own power?
  • It's left completely up in the air how a Super Saiyan managed to kill themselves.

edited 11th Apr '17 2:09:14 PM by Soble

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Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
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#26207: Apr 11th 2017 at 2:11:05 PM

They got so powerful they exploded somehow

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#26208: Apr 11th 2017 at 2:16:34 PM

IIRC, didn't he destroy the planet he was on? Saiyans can't breathe in space. You do the math.

Broly doesn't actually fix this, either. He makes it worse by establishing that a minimum battle power of 10,000 is sufficient to allow anyone to survive the destruction of the planet they're occupying. This is asinine, especially considering that terrestrial existence failure would continue to be a threat to the protagonists all the way through Buu.

As for why it was lost to the annals of history but Beerus wasn't, the answer is because Beerus still exists. Simple as that.

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Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
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#26209: Apr 11th 2017 at 2:34:47 PM

I mean, Broly and Paragus were also being protected by a Ki barrier, and I'm pretty sure Broly had ascended to Super Saiyan or something at that point.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#26210: Apr 11th 2017 at 2:56:06 PM

The only explanation is that Broly's initial 10,000 power level was just his surface level, and after surviving the stabbing, he powered up enough to create that barrier.

I mean, when Gohan got angry enough, he started hunting Raditzes and all.

Of course, that's a potential in universe explanation. I'm pretty sure the reason everyone will attribute things to is fuck broly / fuck toei!

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#26211: Apr 11th 2017 at 2:56:46 PM

Everyone can make a ki barrier.

Even if we do credit the feat to Broly being a Super Saiyan at the time, that just raises the minimum power required to make a ki barrier that blocks the vacuum of space from 10,000 to 500,000. So the humans are screwed but Piccolo and the Saiyans can do it without breaking a sweat.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#26212: Apr 11th 2017 at 2:57:47 PM

So the humans are screwed

Sounds about right. Nothing more to see here.tongue

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#26213: Apr 11th 2017 at 3:04:47 PM

@last page: if Goku had Super Saiyan in his first appearance, his Power Level would've been 500 at minimum, which kicks the ass of everyone up to Raditz.

On the Power Level lists, I actually make the things, and I blame Yu-gi-oh as well.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#26214: Apr 11th 2017 at 3:35:28 PM

[up]Why do you think I said "shit compared to everyone off Earth"?

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#26215: Apr 11th 2017 at 3:36:36 PM

Heres a thought. Find a situation in which the tens or ones digit on a Yugioh card is important.

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Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#26216: Apr 11th 2017 at 3:57:23 PM

The Wicked Avatar in the Yu-Gi-Oh R manga. Its attack is (Highest ATK on the field + 1).

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#26217: Apr 11th 2017 at 4:02:17 PM

Also every card in the game that has an ATK or DEF ending in 50.

edited 11th Apr '17 4:03:00 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#26218: Apr 11th 2017 at 4:03:54 PM

I think I have all the Wicked God Cards actually.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#26219: Apr 11th 2017 at 4:49:48 PM

These conversations goes interesting places when there's no new episodes.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#26220: Apr 11th 2017 at 5:46:15 PM

"But this isn't a tournament!" "Isn't it? Is it not?"

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wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#26222: Apr 11th 2017 at 6:14:38 PM

Call me when they pull off Channelball.

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Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#26223: Apr 11th 2017 at 7:13:20 PM

Magic's way of dealing with power creep is interesting. If only the last few sets are legal in certain tournaments, then power creep can be completely controlled by just releasing more cards on a regular cycle.

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Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#26224: Apr 11th 2017 at 7:56:09 PM

If only more fighters in DBZ had trap cards or magic effects.

Deadly serious here. That's one thing I noticed come, like, ZEXAL. In spite of the fact the second-to-last duel had Attack Points in the 1.000.000 range, the real deal were card effects. Every duel ever was "but my card has this effect1" and then someone countered with "but my card has THIS effect!" And so-on and so-forth. Big numbers meant a lot less than they used to and DBZ could learn a thing or two from that.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#26225: Apr 11th 2017 at 8:01:34 PM

That's true in Magic too. Games rise and fall on your creature abilities more than their Power/Toughness ratings. Ultimately, you're not going to win unless you can punch your opponent in the face enough times to bring his life total to zero, but landing those punches tends to be more a matter of card shenanigans than just playing creatures and hitting them.

Some decks even manage to forego creatures entirely. The infamous Channelball combo, the single meanest design in the history of magic, was a deck designed to win the game on the very first turn without ever playing a creature. It was f*cking brutal; so much so that two of the three cards involved are banned forever from, like, every format.

edited 11th Apr '17 8:02:12 PM by TobiasDrake

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