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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#25776: Mar 18th 2017 at 5:41:06 PM

I have no problems with people that like filler, but you aren't gonna stop anyone from pointing out that it's filler.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#25777: Mar 18th 2017 at 5:45:06 PM

I feel like ignoring things that the original writer didn't write, and actively contradict how the world has been shown to work should be pretty simple.

Toriyama retconning things so the plot doesn't mesh as well is one annoying thing to deal with, but I don't see how Toei just straight up not getting the rules of his work should be given the same considerations.

edited 18th Mar '17 5:45:30 PM by LSBK

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#25778: Mar 18th 2017 at 5:54:49 PM

Some filler material's more harmless than others. Don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about Maron, for instance. Or that time Goku and Piccolo went to go drive cars. But some of it actively undermines the canon due to the complete lack of f*cks Toei gives about the universe's metaphysics and the characters' relative power.

Just to be fair, how solidly did Toriyama cement his death cosmology back when those filler chapters were done?

I agree that Toei can screw around, but it's also real easy to contradict what an author will do when he makes it all up as he goes along. If they don't know he's gonna change things later, how can they not fuck up?

One Strip! One Strip!
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#25779: Mar 18th 2017 at 5:55:52 PM

[up][up][up]There's a pretty huge difference between "yeah there was some filler where it happened" and "No, that never happened. Anytime it looks like it happened should be forgotten because it's dumb and here's why".

edited 18th Mar '17 5:56:17 PM by Moth13

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#25780: Mar 18th 2017 at 6:04:46 PM

I feel like ignoring things that the original writer didn't write, and actively contradict how the world has been shown to work should be pretty simple.

Toriyama retconning things so the plot doesn't mesh as well is one annoying thing to deal with, but I don't see how Toei just straight up not getting the rules of his work should be given the same considerations.

This. Sure, there exists filler where Frieza and Cell have bodies in Hell and their eternal torment consists of kicking everyone's ass in the afterlife and being awesome forever as sort of an evil version of Goku's, but it's as canon as Cooler.

If you like it, great. But if you were to try to interject in a discussion about, say, Frieza's role as most powerful mortal being in the universe by going, "Pfft, Frieza CANNOT be the strongest mortal pre-Goku because Cooler exists. And Broly. DUH," then your argument would be rightly picked apart for how ridiculous it is.

Just to be fair, how solidly did Toriyama cement his death cosmology back when those filler chapters were done?

The mechanics of keeping one's body in the afterlife were firmly established long before Frieza even existed as a concept in Toriyama's head. They were set up in the Saiyan arc when Goku was exploring the afterlife for the first time.

That evil beings have their souls purged of evil and are thusly reincarnated would not be established until Piccolo explained it to Majin Vegeta much, much later on down the line. But that part isn't actually relevant to the simple fact that Frieza and Cell don't get to take their bodies with them down to Hell.

edited 18th Mar '17 6:05:03 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#25781: Mar 18th 2017 at 6:14:24 PM

Oh yeah. You're right. Ok, burn Toei burn.

I just wanted to be sure you know.

One Strip! One Strip!
Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#25782: Mar 18th 2017 at 7:38:56 PM

There's a pretty huge difference between "yeah there was some filler where it happened" and "No, that never happened. Anytime it looks like it happened should be forgotten because it's dumb and here's why".

See, that is not exactly the justification. The justification is not "it is dumb therefore it didn't happen". It is "it actively contradicts what have been established before and after and, therefore, it didn't happen.

Like, the Garlic Jr arc, for example. Some people people like it and that is alright. But the whole backstory doesn't fit anywhere in the chronology. It relies on a movie that literally couldn't have happened the way it was portrayed as. As such, trying to argue the Garlic Jr arc "actually happened" is the same as to argue the Garlic Jr movie "actually happened". And since the movie couldn't have happened (like most movies) then the arc didn't either.

edited 18th Mar '17 7:39:41 PM by Heatth

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#25783: Mar 18th 2017 at 7:47:54 PM

I mean, you can technically edit every movie to fit in the same timeline; just look at that Redux guy who is trying to fit everything in the series into one comprehensive timeline.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#25784: Mar 18th 2017 at 7:56:46 PM

Key word there is edit. If you have to alter the material to make it fit into the canon then the act of alteration, by definition, is a tacit admission that it cannot fit into the canon.

edited 18th Mar '17 7:56:58 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#25785: Mar 18th 2017 at 7:57:53 PM

Yeah it's fun to speculate as a hobby, but saying that makes it true afterwards doesn't make it so.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#25786: Mar 18th 2017 at 7:58:31 PM

Not that I disagree, but which "canon" are we talking about her, specifically? Because if we're relating things to Super that actually does need to be specified.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#25787: Mar 18th 2017 at 8:56:01 PM

It does feel somewhat like we're applying the reception of filler onto Super in general, with the idea that if something happens in Super that contradicts what came before it was released, then the event in Super must not have actually happened.

Well, to be precise it's "the event in Super didn't not actually occur as presented, but is actually something completely different and the scene we see is just for our benefit of understanding it" (as apposed to merely being a retcon, with us being intended to take the scene as it is given to us) which feels like something that needs Word of God specifically saying so to take seriously.

edited 18th Mar '17 8:58:37 PM by KnownUnknown

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#25788: Mar 18th 2017 at 9:02:11 PM

Super's in a really weird boat because the anime's being produced before the manga, but the anime's still being produced by Toei and Toei loves shilling their additions to the canon. Because of course they do. If Toei didn't like Toei's work, then Toei wouldn't have produced it.

So we wind up with things like Captain Ginyu somehow alive and well on Earth despite any possible logic for how that could be true, shoving his dick into the Resurrection of F arc in the anime while the manga doesn't even f*cking have one and just goes, "Either you saw the movie or you didn't. Deal with it."

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#25790: Mar 18th 2017 at 9:31:12 PM

Key word there is edit. If you have to alter the material to make it fit into the canon then the act of alteration, by definition, is a tacit admission that it cannot fit into the canon.

This is why Bojack is one of the best movies.tongue

One Strip! One Strip!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#25791: Mar 18th 2017 at 9:57:24 PM

Except not really; Toei really only added Super Saiyan Rage, Black only having Rosé, Goku meeting Zamasu in order to give the latter the motivation to steal his body (the manga just had him get the idea to do that after seeing his fight with Hit and the Super Dragon Balls on what was basically Youtube), and possibly the Potara time limit in the Future Trunks Saga; everything else has appeared in the manga in some way or form, including Goku never kissing Chichi, Goku botching the Mafuuba, and Merged Zamasu being a thing.

Even then, the manga has also added stuff as well like Trunks' SS3-level Super Saiyan 2 and Goku and Vegeta being able to turn into Super Saiyan God at will; Vegeta and Goku also showed off their ability to switch between God and Blue in an instant to circumvent Blue's stamina drain by only using the latter when they attack, just like what Vegeta did in the AF doujinshi Toyotaro made, as well as what Future Trunks was doing in Multiverse.

edited 18th Mar '17 10:29:35 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Prime_of_Perfection Where force fails, cunning prevails Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Where force fails, cunning prevails
#25792: Mar 18th 2017 at 10:28:42 PM

It's a good thing Goku never kissed Bulma, that sounds weird! [lol]

Improving as an author, one video at a time.
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#25793: Mar 18th 2017 at 10:29:55 PM

Meant Chichi; corrected it.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#25794: Mar 18th 2017 at 11:56:47 PM

I really would like to see Freeza, Cell, and Buu meet canonically as written by Toriyama.

Alas.

edited 18th Mar '17 11:57:12 PM by Hobgoblin

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#25795: Mar 18th 2017 at 11:58:54 PM

     

edited 19th Mar '17 8:05:26 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#25796: Mar 19th 2017 at 8:04:56 AM

Also:

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#25797: Mar 19th 2017 at 8:07:19 AM

Okay that's just odd. Literally the last thing I'd see here.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#25798: Mar 19th 2017 at 8:22:07 AM

"Papika can die for all I care." "They're so in love. I ship it!"

[lol] As a shipper with the utmost disdain for the Belligerent Sexual Tension trope, I found this line hysterical.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#25799: Mar 19th 2017 at 8:33:20 AM

[up] Personally, I don't mind that trope as long as it doesn't overlap with that other trope I hate so much. As long as the belligerence isn't unidirectional, it can actually be pretty funny and cute.

On the topic of DBZA, I think the scene in Episode 34 between Bulma and Vegeta is a pretty good example of the trope being done well (and hilariously).

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
God_of_Awesome Since: Jan, 2001
#25800: Mar 19th 2017 at 9:43:46 AM

[up]So if they're beligerent assholes to everybody, it's okay?


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