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Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#25376: Mar 4th 2017 at 7:28:32 PM

I'm not a Saitama fan. I just think that denying the fact that authors can go 'this character wins all crossover fights'- and then it's true because that's how fiction works- is intellectually dishonest at best. To react to a character that's absolutely that concept by going 'okay, but but he couldn't beat this character' to downright mockable, and absolutely a sign of this sort of thing way, way, way too seriously.

edited 4th Mar '17 7:29:48 PM by Gilphon

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#25377: Mar 4th 2017 at 7:32:20 PM

Except if that's true, then you also have to allow the people who make him lose, because ultimately, it comes down to what the creator wants, and not the fans at all.

edited 4th Mar '17 7:32:55 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#25378: Mar 4th 2017 at 7:35:38 PM

Sure. But 'I beat Saitama' is not a power Cell has. And 'my character has the power to beat every character that automatically beat everyone that automatically wins crossover fights' is the kind of character concept that reveals the absurdity of the exercise. If you're resorting to that, one hopes you're not expecting to be taken seriously, because you sure as hell as don't deserve to be.

Thebrawlbro Since: Aug, 2013
#25379: Mar 4th 2017 at 7:36:02 PM

[up][up][up] For one, when has the author said Saitama could beat anybody in fiction? Two, even if he did say that, it means nothing if the character doesn't have the feats to back it up.

edited 4th Mar '17 7:36:15 PM by Thebrawlbro

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#25380: Mar 4th 2017 at 7:36:56 PM

Wait, are we seriously doing this? Christ, just stop.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#25381: Mar 4th 2017 at 7:37:05 PM

There's basically no reason to even use Saitama if you're going to ignore his central concept.

[up][up] This ain't Death Battle. Not everyone cares about meticulously calculating the size and weight of the mountain that Goku destroyed in panel six of issue 57.

edited 4th Mar '17 7:37:48 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#25382: Mar 4th 2017 at 7:37:16 PM

I think you'll find it's feats that mean nothing, in practice.

edited 4th Mar '17 7:37:32 PM by Gilphon

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#25383: Mar 4th 2017 at 7:40:45 PM

My takeaway from this is that the properties of fictional universes are inherently incompatible with each other.

This song needs more love.
Thebrawlbro Since: Aug, 2013
#25384: Mar 4th 2017 at 7:41:51 PM

Yeah, nobody is going to budge, so no point continuing it.

hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#25385: Mar 4th 2017 at 7:42:44 PM

I just think that denying the fact that authors can go 'this character wins all crossover fights'

But that's not even Saitama's character. He wasn't designed as "he beats any character across all mediums of fiction, end of discussion lul". And even if he were, the author's intent would mean nothing without the evidence to back it up.

and then it's true because that's how fiction works

Pretty sure that's not how fiction works, Saitama doesn't just get to do anything he wants to characters that could be nigh-omnipotent just because some people say he can......

To react to a character that's absolutely that concept

He's absolutely not that concept.

okay, but but he couldn't beat this character

It's not that simple. There are reasons why he can't beat certain characters, and those reasons are backed up with sound evidence.

[up]

Yeah, I'm not responding to anymore Saitama stuff after this. Have already said plenty enough.

edited 4th Mar '17 7:44:52 PM by hardcorefakes

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#25386: Mar 4th 2017 at 7:44:31 PM

[up][up] Quite. Everyone's losing this argument, and will continue to do so until someone wins. But no one's ever going to win. So.

Here is the best lawyer in the world, who is also a pony. He won the argument. The rest of us lost.

We all good?

edited 4th Mar '17 7:45:10 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#25388: Mar 4th 2017 at 7:47:03 PM

I literally explained, in detail, the core concept of Saitama on the last page but I guess that doesn't matter.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#25389: Mar 4th 2017 at 7:48:44 PM

This argument was a good exercise to behold though.

Thebrawlbro Since: Aug, 2013
#25390: Mar 4th 2017 at 7:49:13 PM

I dread the day Saitama gets on Death Battle, because he definitely will. And there will be so much fanboy rage whether he wins or loses.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#25391: Mar 4th 2017 at 7:50:31 PM

Goku v. Superman already set a precedent for DB accepting the premise of a character being infinitely powerful. Swap out Supes for Saitama and most of the arguments they made about how he has no limits and is infinitely strong are basically the exact same.

edited 4th Mar '17 7:51:35 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#25392: Mar 4th 2017 at 7:53:12 PM

Which is funny, because DB was mocked all over the net for the logic they used in their second Goku vs Superman battle.

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#25393: Mar 4th 2017 at 7:54:18 PM

Saitama being in Death Battle would most certainly be a bad idea. Even having him in this much less rigorous format was only acceptable because he didn't end up actually fighting Cell.

Thebrawlbro Since: Aug, 2013
#25394: Mar 4th 2017 at 7:57:28 PM

[up][up] Especially since the first one kept it simple and just showed in terms of feats Goku just wasn't on Supermans level.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#25395: Mar 4th 2017 at 7:59:58 PM

Superman having no limits and being infinitely powerful was the logic they used in the first battle.

They just restated it in the second one. Their logic for Superman beating SSB Goku was, "Infinity still means f*cking infinity, you guys. It doesn't matter how strong Goku gets. Infinity wins. Always."

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#25396: Mar 4th 2017 at 8:05:13 PM

I feel like I'm going in a circle with this, but Superman isn't infinitely strong, and has been bested by the likes of Flash, Wonder Woman, Batman, Darkseid, etc, and none of the above characters are infinitely strong. He has established limits.

[up][up]

Yeah, their first video was the correct approach in that regard, but they went overboard on their second one, and were rightfully criticized for it.

Specifically, they are most criticized for using out of context feats and statements to ascribe Superman "infinite" strength, which any actual Superman fan with knowledge of his character and his abilities would question.

edited 4th Mar '17 8:11:14 PM by hardcorefakes

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#25397: Mar 4th 2017 at 8:08:24 PM

Deathbattle!Superman is infinity strong, that's the only version anyone talks about.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#25398: Mar 4th 2017 at 8:12:19 PM

The point of 'feats' is to establish characters' limits, to show how strong these characters maximum's are. Saitama is a deconstruction of the typical idea of the 'literally invincible superhero', which partially makes him a gag character, even if his particular gag if often Played for Drama. Literally the very concept of Saitama's character is that he is the man who can defeat anyone, no matter how strong, in a single punch, and he's not particularly thrilled with that.

To ever have Saitama face someone he couldn't defeat in one punch (notice the wording there: I said couldn't, not doesn't, there's a couple enemies whom he hits once and they don't stay down, where it's made clear that he would wreck them in one punch if he held back just a tiny bit less) would be to completely destroy the point of the series and give Saitama what he wants in life: a challenge.

Until such time as Saitama is shown to have limits, he should be treated as if they don't exist, as is literally stated by multiple characters in his series.

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#25399: Mar 4th 2017 at 8:14:18 PM

[up]I completely agree.

Also it figures this thread would devolve into arguments about feats Saitama has done v. DB characters.

edited 4th Mar '17 8:16:46 PM by BaconManiac5000

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#25400: Mar 4th 2017 at 8:16:28 PM

I figure the fight with Boros is a decent template for how a fight with Cell would go, down to the enemy regenerating from attacks, big desperate transformed states that burn through stamina like crazy, and a final showdown against a full-power planet-destroying beam attack.

Boros is probably more in line with Freeza's power scale than Cell's, so the fight (while probably having the same outcome) would likely be closer to a challenge than the Boros fight.

I have a message from another time...

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