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Paper is an element?: Elemental Powers

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Servbot Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#26: Oct 4th 2010 at 5:42:42 PM

I figured it had more to do with how the material is treated.

As in a specific form of Telekinesis? I would have to disagree. I don't think people would ever consider Dolls as a form of element despite Doll controllers being more common than Paper Masters.

From my experience, when the Elemental Powers trope is intentionally used, the writers will directly state (through gameplay or setting mythos) or heavily imply (often by directly grouping it with the more familiar elements) that something is meant to be an Element.

From the shows I've seen, Paper doesn't get this treatment. When a Paper Master appears, it's only as a quirky super power as opposed to an element.

edited 4th Oct '10 5:45:05 PM by Servbot

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#27: Oct 4th 2010 at 5:50:00 PM

Well, I'm basing my knowledge off of the one Paper Master I'm familiar with, Yuriko Readman, who treats paper very similar to the way benders treat their elements in Avatar The Last Airbender.

Come to think of it, that fits more into Whatever Mancy.

edited 4th Oct '10 5:50:41 PM by Deboss

Fight smart, not fair.
Sackett Since: Jan, 2001
#28: Oct 4th 2010 at 6:40:41 PM

I think the way Read Or Die treats Paper powers is very similar to elemental water powers. While she can't create paper from nothing, she can summon it, empower it with strength or sharpness, and manipulate it.

DragonQuestZ The Other Troper from Somewhere in California Since: Jan, 2001
The Other Troper
#29: Oct 4th 2010 at 7:15:14 PM

I say it's not an element, just an unconventional material with some powers.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
Twilightdusk Since: Jan, 2001
#30: Oct 4th 2010 at 7:40:27 PM

this discussion makes me wonder though, how many characters would you describe as having "power over the element fire/water/earth/air," where they just sorta use it as a superpower? I think we might be being a little bit harsh on paper here in comparison to the general usage of the four classical "elements."

DragonQuestZ The Other Troper from Somewhere in California Since: Jan, 2001
The Other Troper
#31: Oct 4th 2010 at 7:56:29 PM

It's not the use. The classical elements were about more than that.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#32: Oct 4th 2010 at 8:16:42 PM

Yes they were, but the trope is not.

Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#33: Oct 4th 2010 at 8:29:45 PM

Well in Negima Onmyodo certainly fits as the trope as it is written you can create pets, use paper to attack people, or make a small puppet that you can comunicate with telepathicly. This "eastern" magic is side by side with traditional "western" magic and stated they come from the same source (Ki and Ninjitsu are different) and both are weak to Asuna's Anti-Magic.

Being Western Mage Negi could use the skills but not very effectively since he was new at it. (he normally is Shock and Awe and Blow You Away.)

Al's book magic is a very borderline example.

Ofcourse this series has nearly every type of element listed and then some. (Doll magic is in there too Chachazero and Chachamaru. Eva is said to beable to control over 300 dolls when she was at full power.)

edited 5th Oct '10 2:46:13 AM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
Evilest_Tim A real American hero Since: Nov, 2009
A real American hero
#34: Oct 4th 2010 at 9:09:14 PM

Really, elemental powers as a story tool boil down to "the character has a power the "theme" of which is based on the qualities and things associated with X." So earth has earthquakes and landslides, water has tidal waves and whirlpools, and so on. Typically, weaknesses are the same; the earth-sorceror's powers might be weak to fire that bakes his earth creatures too hard to move or water that makes them collapse into mud.

While Read Or Die's paper-mancer and that scene in Spirited Away where Zeniba is attacking Haku with paper birds are the only ones I can think of as examples off-hand, I'm sure I've seen others where paper-control is a power; the paper-mancer has powers resembling scaled-up origami and the attendant weaknesses of paper (fire, water, wind), though they can make paper ridiculously stiff any time the plot doesn't require it to tear. It's the same thing; a gimmick based around the properties of a particular thing.

I wouldn't say dolls count because a "doll" doesn't really define what the person can do with their power (they don't necessarily require strings or outside manipulation, for example), and isn't used in the "I control the power of X" sense elements usually are.

It is shameful for a demon to be working, but one needs gold even in Hell these days.
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#35: Oct 5th 2010 at 4:00:29 AM

I actually have to agree with Servbot and Arromdee on this. Paper is generally not  *

an element, because paper is almost never presented as a fundamental building block of the world. In most settings when something is shown as an element, it is presented as having some link with the world. It is a part of it, either as a building block of the world (or a part of it), or as a fundamental force.

Can a character has superpowers related to the 4 classic elements yet that power not count as an element in story? I would say Yes, certainly, where the power is just that, a power, and no ties are made with the setting. Take examples in modern settings, where science has long moved away from the "4 elements" ideas.

Also to me the big difference is that paper is a manufactured good. Fire, Earth, Air and Water all occur naturally. Same for wood, lightning, metal, light, darkness even void (in space). Heck, "heart" since it is a biproduct of sentient life if you are willing to stretch it that far. These things are all present in nature and life. Paper is not. Paper is a tool, made for humans, by humans. It can be given new purpose through Whatever Mancy but that doesn't make it an element anymore than a Technomancer turns computers and robots into a element.

edited 5th Oct '10 4:05:27 AM by Ghilz

Evilest_Tim A real American hero Since: Nov, 2009
A real American hero
#36: Oct 5th 2010 at 4:14:03 AM

Actually, "metal" in the normally-used sense is also a manufactured good (your average metal-mancer will control hard, shiny purified metal, not dull ore). I really don't think the distinction that elements can't be manmade makes much sense, since electricity-powers in particular tend to be perfectly fine controlling artificially generated electricity.

It is shameful for a demon to be working, but one needs gold even in Hell these days.
Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#37: Oct 5th 2010 at 4:22:00 AM

Well I think Metal only made it on to the list because of Pokemon. But really we have Seasons up there and there is only 2 examples of it that fits anywhere near " Elemental Powers " and that is Oracle Of Seasons and 1 episode of Samurai Jack even that isn't even close to a better fit than Paper.

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#38: Oct 5th 2010 at 4:22:55 AM

The ability to control an artificial equivalent or artificially refined form of the element is not the issue. Of course a fire elementalist can control a flame from a lighter. Of course an electric elementalist can control electricity in cables. But let me put this way:

In a world of hunter/gatherer humans at the dawn of time, is there anywhere in the world...

  • Fire? Yes.
  • Water? Yes.
  • Electricity ? Yes.
  • Metals? Yes.
  • Hearts/Emotions? Yes.
  • Light? Yes.
  • Darkness? Yes.
  • Paper? No.

Now, there ARE exceptions, human creativity being what it is, like Paper Mario, where the world is explicitly built out of paper, and the entire world has the properties of paper - in this case, paper is treated as an element. But unless a setting goes out of its way to make it an element (by having paper being an intrinsic part of the world), then paper ain't an element.

edited 5th Oct '10 4:32:20 AM by Ghilz

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#39: Oct 5th 2010 at 4:24:10 AM

@Raso Metal is one of the 5 Chinese elements So it is treated as an element in various medias with a less than sterling understanding of the concept or who are "loosely" inspired by.

As for seasons as elements, they tend to show up in works that deal with The Fair Folk, what with splitting them in a Summer Court and a Winter Court. Not sure HOW valid as elements they are, but they are often shown as a "necessary" part of the natural world, which is close enough. They do tend to overlap with other elements though.

edited 5th Oct '10 4:28:16 AM by Ghilz

Evilest_Tim A real American hero Since: Nov, 2009
A real American hero
#40: Oct 5th 2010 at 4:31:02 AM

I think you're trying to define the trope outside it's use as as story conceit with that, though. To the writer, an elemental power means one themed around the strengths and weaknesses of a particular thing; so, for example, water-man can reasonably be expected to do things water can do and be weak to things that get rid of water. Electro-man can do things with electricity, and is weak to things that make electricity go away (like being thrown into powerlines). Similarly, paper-person has origami-themed powers and weaknesses specific to paper. Same hat, slightly weirder person wearing it. Sound links to music-themed powers, and you can't argue music is some primal force in the universe either.

The important part is if paper is treated in the same way, not if it actually qualifies as an element under traditional definitions; after all, the writers clearly don't care about traditional elemental definitions (not when you have "elements" like darkness, radiation and "holy" on there). I'm rather surprised "crystal" isn't on the list somewhere (subset of ice?) since it's not that uncommon either.

It is shameful for a demon to be working, but one needs gold even in Hell these days.
Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#41: Oct 5th 2010 at 4:35:50 AM

^ That suprises me too.

^^ ahh didn't know that I just wrote down an escapist response :(.

^^^ The Power of the written word or drawings have been around for a long time and Paper Master is pretty much an extension of that by control of the thing you write on or read. (although that would expand the trope a bit). Speak it and meh, Write it down and it has power (which dates back to when people were lucky to know how to write).

edited 5th Oct '10 4:55:10 AM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
arromdee Since: Jan, 2001
#42: Oct 5th 2010 at 7:45:30 AM

To the writer, an elemental power means one themed around the strengths and weaknesses of a particular thing; so, for example, water-man can reasonably be expected to do things water can do and be weak to things that get rid of water.

I think that elemental powers are normally associated with a world which contains multiple elements. If someone really has fire element based powers as opposed to fire based powers, there are probably water, earth, and air based guys somewhere nearby. If someone can do "fire magic" the setting probably contains "air magic" and "water magic". Paper doesn't get treated this way.

Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#43: Oct 5th 2010 at 4:01:11 PM

^^ To cut this off before it goes too far, the elemental control of paper has nothing to do with written words at all. Please don't think that it does. This is about blank paper being used as itself, often shaped by folding but still just paper. As soon as what's written on the paper starts to matter then the power is something completely different and the paper is just being used as a medium for the power of words, which is another trope entirely.

Anyway, I think there are two different tropes being discussed here. One is about settings that revolve around an elemental schema and in which characters with powers must fall into that schema. Avatar The Last Airbender would be a good example of this. The elements are part of the world and the powers are an extension of that. It also shows up in RPGs pretty often as a game mechanic (hence the Elemental Rock–Paper–Scissors).

There's another closely related trope though that's probably much more common because it's easier to write without all that Worldbuilding stuff. This is when characters get themed superpowers which would look a lot like telekinesis if they weren't all limited to a specific "element". This is just a cheap way to create diversity in powers without having to be creative. In these settings even if you start off with fire, water, earth and air, new characters will be assigned new "elements" that drift further and further away from the classical elements, just to differentiate their powers. The inflation of the list to include things like paper and electricity is probably thinking in this sense.

edited 5th Oct '10 4:08:48 PM by Clarste

berr Since: Jan, 2001
#44: Oct 7th 2010 at 4:33:01 PM

^ So the problem wouldn't be solved by listing it as "Paper / Writing" instead, given the ubiquity of settings wherein "runes" have power in and of themselves? Or are runes explicitly tied to the power of words in most settings? Not suggesting that one requires the other, but listing it as "Paper / Writing" would enable one to list Paper Master and (whatever the name for the power of runes and other writing is, I forget) since there's apparently some overlap, but it seems to me that symbols and images are usually treated as more elemental to a setting than the paper it's printed on, the same symbol will have the same power if carved on a rock, a set of symbols or runes can be fundamental to a setting, etc. This may invoke Elemental Rock–Paper–Scissors, of course...

hmm, the preceding argument may militate against the notion of paper as an element per se... I don't object to keeping it listed necessarily, if it's a platonic form of some sort that has some connection to the material world. It's possible to envision a character who creates golems out of paper, such a character's powers would be rendered unique as opposed to irrelevant in a paperless society (although they'd have to bother about searching for a source of paper, old libraries perhaps...) but then again if no fictional examples exist, Hmmm...

Perhaps if we decide to leave it be, we should add Scissors as well, Just For Pun grin

edited 7th Oct '10 4:44:43 PM by berr

GameGuruGG Vampire Hunter from Castlevania (Before Recorded History)
Vampire Hunter
#45: Dec 11th 2010 at 6:51:30 PM

The point of an Elemental Power isn't that it is a fundamental force or that it is a building block of the world, but instead is a power that is used as a person's only power and used in a variety of ways. There are at least two media examples where there is a Papermancer proper, and many more where Paper is used magically.

As for a "Scissors" Mancer, I believe there have actually been examples of where a person controlled bladed weapons as if it were an elemental power.

edited 11th Dec '10 6:54:14 PM by GameGuruGG

Wizard Needs Food Badly
Sephirose Since: May, 2009
#46: Dec 16th 2010 at 7:21:07 AM

I say keep it. Keep it all. It's just fine the way it is.

ExpiryBot Since: Dec, 1969
#47: Jan 12th 2011 at 11:04:06 AM

This thread expired after 60 days of inactivity.

MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#48: Apr 13th 2011 at 11:40:09 AM

I was just about to make a Trope Talk thread about something like this, but I have something else to bring up.

Aren't we overreaching the definition if the term "element" a little, especially for this page? I mean how the hell did "Season" and "Beast" get on there without complaint? Those aren't even close to be typical elements. Hell, I can just barely let Arcane, Poison, and Radiation slide.

When have stories taken the concept so far? Besides the obvious of Pokemon using Poison I mean. Everything else just seems like shoehorning to make everything an "element".

The Blog The Art
Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#49: Apr 13th 2011 at 11:57:26 AM

We already talked about this a lot. I'm just gonna quote myself from October ago on this issue.

Anyway, I think there are two different tropes being discussed here. One is about settings that revolve around an elemental schema and in which characters with powers must fall into that schema. Avatar: The Last Airbender would be a good example of this. The elements are part of the world and the powers are an extension of that. It also shows up in RP Gs pretty often as a game mechanic (hence the Elemental Rock Paper Scissors).

There's another closely related trope though that's probably much more common because it's easier to write without all that World Building stuff. This is when characters get themed superpowers which would look a lot like telekinesis if they weren't all limited to a specific "element". This is just a cheap way to create diversity in powers without having to be creative. In these settings even if you start off with fire, water, earth and air, new characters will be assigned new "elements" that drift further and further away from the classical elements, just to differentiate their powers. The inflation of the list to include things like paper and electricity is probably thinking in this sense.

So while technically they aren't elements, it's certainly a trope and it's really really common.

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