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alethiophile Shadowed Philosopher from Ëa Since: Nov, 2009
Shadowed Philosopher
#201: Jul 24th 2013 at 10:06:03 PM

I'm skeptical of the idea that the leaf training or equivalent is required to pull off any jutsu using that element at all. Nothing of the sort is shown when Sasuke is learning Grand Fireball; it looks as if it's basically just done by being taught the hand signs, then practicing it over and over. I can see "mastering" an element, as Naruto does Wind in Shippuden, being a matter of long difficult training and something that implies jounin-level power having two; the ability to use it at all shouldn't be nearly so significant. (And if there's actual canon to the effect that the opposite is true, I'm more than willing to ignore it. Heaven knows it wouldn't be the first time.)

Shinigan (Naruto fanfic)
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#202: Jul 24th 2013 at 10:06:56 PM

The Uchiha clan are said to have a natural affinity for Fire techniques, as I already said. They're not normal and should not be used as a baseline.

Kakashi said it took Sasuke a long time to learn how to create Lightning chakra, however.

edited 24th Jul '13 10:07:29 PM by Saiga

God_of_Awesome Since: Jan, 2001
#203: Jul 24th 2013 at 10:09:09 PM

Cutting the leaf is done by sheer brute force of will and elemental manipulation.

I consider "+hand signs=easier" to be not a big break from canon.

ScorpioRat from Houston, Texas Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Forming Voltron
#204: Jul 24th 2013 at 10:09:40 PM

Yes, I know that he didn't contradict himself, but my own point still stands. Team 8 did it wrong, but the idea can be executed right in a fanfiction. Besides, Naruto never used a regular Wind technique, just the extremely hard Rasenshuriken. We have no idea if he could have possibly learned a less dificult, established Wind technique with handsigns. He was trying to do the near impossible by creating a brand new move.

edited 24th Jul '13 10:10:58 PM by ScorpioRat

alethiophile Shadowed Philosopher from Ëa Since: Nov, 2009
Shadowed Philosopher
#205: Jul 24th 2013 at 10:11:26 PM

Sasuke can learn Lightning chakra—indeed, the Chidori, one of the most powerful Lightning techniques—in a month. Sure, he's a genius, but I don't believe he did a whole elemental meditation during that training. I'd expect that he was taught a bunch of hand signs and did a bunch of practice, and got it that way, without ever 'mastering' the Lightning element. Maybe he did the mastery training during the timeskip, and that's why afterward he can basically shape the Chidori as he wants.

Shinigan (Naruto fanfic)
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#206: Jul 24th 2013 at 10:18:20 PM

[up][up][up] Cutting the leaf was extremely basic, and was meant to take 6 months. I don't see how "make some hand signs and you instantly know how to do it without learning anything about elements" isn't a break of canon.

[up][up] He also learned a more basic Wind Release Rasengan. And as I keep saying, he didn't take so long just learning the Rasenshuriken because it took him a long time just learning wind nature itself. This was before he even knew he was going to be creating a Rasengan variant.

[up] As much as it sucks, that is exactly what Kakashi says. Sasuke is just that good that he learns at a level way above everyone else. Kakashi wasn't talking about him learning the Chidori, but doing the exact same thing Naruto did with the leaf, only with Lighting chakra. He was comparing the time each of them took at the same task.

edited 24th Jul '13 10:19:06 PM by Saiga

alethiophile Shadowed Philosopher from Ëa Since: Nov, 2009
Shadowed Philosopher
#207: Jul 24th 2013 at 10:28:24 PM

Well, the only source we have for the whole leaf meditation exercise is that it was what Naruto did. And whether he knew it or not, he was being trained to create a whole new technique by injecting the wind element into Rasengan, one that even Yondaime-Hokage was unable to succeed at. Of course he'd be trained in the manner tailored to provide greatest mastery.

Meanwhile, we don't ever really see people learning basic elemental techniques, except Sasuke on the Fireball and the Chidori. And in neither case is it shown that he's going through a long meditative mastery exercise; he seems to be learning them via being taught the method, then repeatedly practicing it, the same way e.g. Naruto learns Rasengan in the first place, and presumably the same way they're taught the basic untyped techniques at the Academy.

There exist things like Reppushou or Kaze no Yaiba, none of which are on anything like the level of Fuuton: Rasengan or Rasenshuriken. I'd need a specific source for the claim that learning any of these requires the mastery exercise first. (And, given such a source, I would concede the canon argument and then promptly ignore it for all my own purposes, because it's a silly idea.)

Shinigan (Naruto fanfic)
ScorpioRat from Houston, Texas Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Forming Voltron
#208: Jul 24th 2013 at 10:31:19 PM

Why the heck does anyone bother using elements if only genii can use it without 20 years of training? Seems like a ridiculous concept now... No wonder people want to bend the rules, I don't blame them. XD

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#209: Jul 24th 2013 at 10:33:31 PM

It's not just that Naruto did it, but what Kakashi said during the whole ordeal. Kakashi told us the leaf exercise was necessary to begin learning elemental jutsu, so there's no reason to think it's only necessary for shit like the Rasenshuriken. And Sasuke had to learn the exact same thing Naruto was doing for the Chidori, as Kakashi said.

[up] It's not 20 years of training for one element, it's more like a few years... and that's probably why we only see elite ninja using them. As to why, it's pretty obvious - most of the top tier techniques we see are elemental ones.

edited 24th Jul '13 10:34:31 PM by Saiga

ScorpioRat from Houston, Texas Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Forming Voltron
#210: Jul 24th 2013 at 10:40:16 PM

That's still a really akward idea, just saying. And Sasuke doing that in a month is so...frustrating. XD

So I assume after a year of training, a person could at least control the element a little? I have no idea why elements must be ultra hard in the first place, but if Canon says so...oh well.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#211: Jul 24th 2013 at 10:44:01 PM

I don't get what's so awkward about it, except for how good it makes Sasuke. But I've always taken issue with Sasuke finding everything so easy xD

The idea is that you're fundamentally altering your own chakra into a different state, making elemental jutsu a step up from the regular jutsu. I like the whole shape/nature transformation element because I think it adds depth.

ScorpioRat from Houston, Texas Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Forming Voltron
#212: Jul 24th 2013 at 10:49:27 PM

I think the fact that other series are more relaxed abour elemental magic makes Naruto look overly strict in comparison. Or something like that. It's like how playing Pokemon makes lightning beating earth look nonsensical. It just makes the jutsus seem to work wrong. But that's just my excuse.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#213: Jul 24th 2013 at 10:52:54 PM

I don't think I follow any other series with Elemental Magic, except Bleach and One Piece who are even more strict with it since Elements tend to be unique powers. Oh, and ATLA, which is 1 element that is predetermined for a bender unless they're an Avatar.

edited 24th Jul '13 10:53:31 PM by Saiga

ScorpioRat from Houston, Texas Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Forming Voltron
#214: Jul 24th 2013 at 10:57:50 PM

If you play any RPG, elements tend to be easy to learn, like Dragon Quest, or Skyrim. I think people just want to transfer that weak move<decent move<strong move concept to Naruto, even though it doesn't work that way. And the Naruto RPG games and Ultimate Ninja games make elements look easier too, so now it's kind of ingrained in everyone's heads.

Edit: Even in Avatar, if you have the affinity, doing basic bending moves doesn't seem too hard. Katara picked it up prety quick.

edited 24th Jul '13 10:59:42 PM by ScorpioRat

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#215: Jul 24th 2013 at 11:01:23 PM

Game mechanics don't always make for good story mechanics though.

Compared to other series I know, it seems using elements in Naruto requires more effort, but on the upside gives you more diversity as you can theoretically learn all 5 given enough training.

salfishfin Since: Jan, 2001
#216: Jul 25th 2013 at 7:49:39 AM

You know, it's entirely possible that the Author already assumed basic elemental techniques could be learned by everyone, only to be contradicted by canon later. It was bound to happen eventually. I mean, it's the same thing with the Harry Potter fic he wrote; he started before all the books were out, so things like Snape being a good guy all along and Voldemort's other horcruxes get muddled, and he leaves it as he planned it rather than retconning.

FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#217: Jul 25th 2013 at 10:43:47 AM

[Viridian] called "Itachi being a good guy" a shark-jump actually-

[up]

It's probably this. Why is the elemental training aspect the main source of controversy here?. What about the actual writing, the plot, the cliches, the not-so-subtle bashing, the characterizations, the adherence or avoidance of canon? Give me something more to chew my teeth on.

edited 25th Jul '13 10:50:48 AM by FOFD

kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#218: Jul 25th 2013 at 10:52:42 AM

Itachi being a good guy had foreshadowing (like when Sasuke said: "He cried on that night..."). His backstory was perfectly fine until he came back as a zombie and was shilled to hell and back.

The elemental stuff I don't care about, Team 8 is one of the earliest fanfics and the chapter with Kakashi explaining that stuff wasn't even out yet probably.

The problems I have with this fic are Kurenai's "feminism" (which just makes her come off as a petty bitch about 90 % of the time), the boring one-dimensional villains and the all the OOC characterization and bashing. (like with Hiashi)

This fic is pretty much where all the retarded Hiashi bashing and some other fanon clichés started. That's not the author's fault, but still annoying.

edited 25th Jul '13 10:54:33 AM by kay4today

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#219: Jul 25th 2013 at 11:03:46 AM

I'm guessing Kurenai's feminism is probably due to the author taking offense to Kishimoto's (mis)treatment of his female characters, while IINM Hiashi's OOC vileness is apparently heavily tied into the For Want Of A Nail factor that the author had inserted into the timeline.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#220: Jul 25th 2013 at 11:57:13 AM

[up][up]See, I like how Kurenai is portrayed, and how she isn't Stuffed in the Fridge after getting pregnant.

...what I don't like is her being the author's mouthpiece:

Considering that Kurenai automatically judges Ino as a shrew, condemns Sakura as a silly shallow girl, Kiba as a braggart, immediately writes off Sasuke as having something to prove, is vastly annoyed by Guy, almost threatens Jiraiya, and mentally asserts that brutality against Neji was necessary, this says a lot about the author.

Ino is a twelve-year old girl. A shrew, huh Kurenai? You mean to tell me that the jonin who "threatens villagers (who, admittedly, are nonsensically nastier than they are in canon) with genjutsu, gets in people's faces, and is otherwise aggravated by most of the series regulars" is calling the 12-year old a "terrible shrew"?

The Sasuke one is particularly ironic, because Kurenai actually 'has' something to prove in her quest to make a superior genin team to her last one, but his proving something is viewed negatively.

She gets ready to draw a kunai on Jiraiya because apparently she 'hates' seeing Kakashi reading adult novels/porn. Apparently, porn is a massive taboo in the Naruto universe that cannot be tolerated. I was really hoping that Jiraiya would, and was very happy when Jiraiya threatened her back:

"Wait!" Kurenai's voice stopped him as he was reaching toward the doorknob. "His father? Gods… The Fourth really did have a son, didn't he?"

Jiraiya turned back toward her with a grimace. "Me and my big mouth," he sighed. "Congratulations," he growled, "you've stumbled across another S-class secret. If this gets out, half the hidden villages will be sending assassination teams within the week. But you won't have to worry about that because I'll kill you myself."

[up]There was one chapter where she was contemplating "male egos" and something about the way she frequently sizes up most people, "to their credit", just bothers me. I can't help but wonder if the Nail is just an excuse for her to not be with Asuma and therefore tied down by romance. Nobody (can) size her up on anything like having a hidden relationship with her colleague.

She shook her head. Such conduct was unbecoming to a Konoha Jonin. At least, betting for money would be. Perhaps a wager of forfeits could be negotiated. Forcing Asuma to give up cigarettes or Kakashi to forgo his 'little orange books' for a month… could prove to be highly entertaining. Of course there was also the matter of her forfeits. She was fairly certain that playing to their male egos could let her avoid anything too onerous.

And what I really dislike is how she influences Naruto. There was a moment where Naruto cheers for Hinata and tells her too kick Neji's ass, and then Kurenai is just like "no" and he apologizes for it. Damn responsible surrogate parent. I imagine he ditched the Sexy Jutsu and pranking because Kurenai is just such a responsible teacher. There is a part where he acts like the Sexy Jutsu was a mistake. Given it's success rate, it really isn't.

It was odd for Naruto, to feel like he'd come to know someone he'd never met, but it was a good sort of odd. He could see where Kurenai-sensei had learned a lot from the man, but added her own spin to his lessons before she passed them on. He wondered what he would teach his genins when he was a jonin. Hopefully by that time everyone would have forgotten about 'Sexy no jutsu'; if they didn't, he was going to have to have a little "talk" with Konohamaru...

One part that made me blink was a part where Naruto scratches the back of his head, and Kurenai views this as him having an overly emotional response to praise. I would accept this if there was some commentary from someone else noting that Kurenai often misreads people. Okay, then from her warped/jaded perspective, rubbing the back of your head and smiling at a compliment means you had a crappy childhood.

But I don't know, according to the 11,000 reviews (which this fic has), this author studied human psychology, and is very good at making characters feel real, so clearly his view on facial reactions and general, human responses is quite educated and grabbing.

edited 25th Jul '13 2:55:19 PM by FOFD

kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#221: Jul 25th 2013 at 12:03:59 PM

[up] That's exactly why I don't like this fic's Kurenai. She is a hypocrite and a poor excuse of a feminist. It's insulting to actual feminists, because real feminists don't act like whiny children.

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#222: Jul 25th 2013 at 12:35:56 PM

[up] The term "real(-life) feminists" includes the subcategory of "crappy/hypocritical/myopic/extremist/whiny feminists", you know.

edited 25th Jul '13 12:36:52 PM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#223: Jul 25th 2013 at 12:41:33 PM

No, it doesn't. A real feminist is none of that. I said "real", not "real life".

edited 25th Jul '13 12:50:10 PM by kay4today

alethiophile Shadowed Philosopher from Ëa Since: Nov, 2009
Shadowed Philosopher
#224: Jul 25th 2013 at 1:03:33 PM

No true Scotsman much? tongue

Shinigan (Naruto fanfic)
kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#225: Jul 25th 2013 at 2:25:09 PM

No, I just know what actual feminism is about.


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