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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#151: May 4th 2012 at 8:37:48 PM

It really is. Team8 is the result of S'Tarkan thinking he could do better, and look how badly that turned out.evil grin

In all seriousness, the criticism is valid and people should be allowed to have their own opinion and criticize it without being chased out of the thread.

And just because someone criticizes the flaw of the series doesn't mean they hate it or even dislike it.

edited 4th May '12 8:39:43 PM by Saiga

gwonbush Lurking Puma Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Lurking Puma
#152: May 4th 2012 at 9:29:49 PM

Honestly, my main problem with it is something that hasn't been complained about (recently in this thread at least): the Gratuitous Japanese, particularly in the opening chapters. Switching languages mid-dialogue does not good writing make.

edited 4th May '12 9:30:06 PM by gwonbush

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#153: May 4th 2012 at 9:36:22 PM

Oh yeah, that's a big annoyance for me. We talked about that a lot in the Naruto manga thread.

gwonbush Lurking Puma Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Lurking Puma
#154: May 4th 2012 at 9:44:01 PM

The only thing you really should leave untranslated is names and incantations (only if the incantation is in a language other than the base language of the work). Names includes titles, technique names, and honorifics, as long as you use them properly. And many times, translating it would lose nothing (with the exception of honorifics, which add another layer of depth to character interactions.)

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#155: May 4th 2012 at 10:04:56 PM

I would say honorifics should be left out actually. For an English language author doing an English language fic, they're completely out of place. Names make sense to leave untranslated when they sound awkward in English, but making up new Japanese names is pretty bad.

alethiophile Shadowed Philosopher from Ëa Since: Nov, 2009
Shadowed Philosopher
#156: May 4th 2012 at 10:09:55 PM

If it's set in a place where, in-story, the characters are using honorifics, then you might as well use the honorifics. They don't really translate at all, all of them, and the ones that do aren't precise equivalences. And if you feel the need to use names from outside of canon in an anime/manga fic, then you should use real Japanese names, at least, rather than Western ones or ones you've made up from a probably imperfect understanding of Japanese phonetics. There are perfectly good lists of such available online.

Shinigan (Naruto fanfic)
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#157: May 4th 2012 at 10:12:25 PM

I meant names for items/techniques, especially techniques. And no, honorifics should never be used in an English fic. We don't have honorifics in English because we don't use honorifics in English.

alethiophile Shadowed Philosopher from Ëa Since: Nov, 2009
Shadowed Philosopher
#158: May 4th 2012 at 10:51:24 PM

Ah, yes, technique names. Yeah, if you absolutely must come up with names for them in Japanese, you should at least know Japanese, or run them by someone who does, lest you sound stupid. Which, of course, is a level of effort that very few people are willing or able to put into random fics.

Regarding honorifics, I'm going to disagree and leave it at that.

Shinigan (Naruto fanfic)
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#159: May 4th 2012 at 11:02:02 PM

Honorifics in English fics is probably my number one biggest peeve. Utterly unacceptable.

Nitramy Evil-Smiting Umbrella from Antipolo City, PH Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Evil-Smiting Umbrella
#160: May 4th 2012 at 11:47:22 PM

[up][up] Ah yes. Gratuitous Romaji for jutsu. That's definitely a sore spot for me. Kind of makes the effort you put into crafting jutsu names all the more better, though.

[up] Are rank-based honorifics (i.e. Uzumaki-genin, Hatake-jonin) a lesser or greater sore spot for you?

edited 4th May '12 11:50:19 PM by Nitramy

Neither goony beard-men nor rainbow-haired she-twinks will stand in the way of my dreams!
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#161: May 5th 2012 at 12:10:07 AM

<Facepalm> Those aren't honorifics, and using them as such is basically butchering both languages.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#162: May 5th 2012 at 3:21:43 AM

Nani?

Gomen!

Otou-san!

Nani?

[lol]

[up] Be nice, Lu. I didn't know that either. sad

I don't really have anything against honorfics like kun, chan, san, sama and the like. I prefer English only, but I don't have anything against them.

edited 5th May '12 3:29:08 AM by kay4today

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#163: May 5th 2012 at 5:52:26 AM

Japanese Honorifics play a very important part in Japanese social interactions (due to the much greater emphasis on politeness in Japanese culture than in the West), and several of them carry inherent naunces (some which change with context) that don't always have English equivalents. If there is a relatively accurate English equivalent, then I don't think there's a problem with translating it as such, but otherwise Japanese honorifics should not be ever dropped or swapped with English "counterparts".

edited 5th May '12 5:53:15 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#164: May 5th 2012 at 7:00:58 PM

They don't have any meaning in English, and shouldn't be used in English. It's fine to keep them in when translating from Japanese for the accuracy, but in an English fic it's just as bad as sprinkling random Japanese words in the dialogue. In universe they use honorifics... because in universe they speak Japanese.

alethiophile Shadowed Philosopher from Ëa Since: Nov, 2009
Shadowed Philosopher
#165: May 5th 2012 at 7:21:21 PM

Yes, and in-universe the social dynamics are informed and implied by the extra information provided by the honorifics, and regardless of what language you're speaking this is useful information to have. Of course they don't have meaning in English, but neither does the word 'kunai', and I defy you to find a Naruto fic that doesn't use that.

Shinigan (Naruto fanfic)
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#166: May 5th 2012 at 7:25:57 PM

Show, Don't Tell. Using honorifics to tell people of social dynamics rather than showing it in the interaction itself is just plain terrible form.

And that absolutely can't be compared to kunai, which is the name of the tool.

alethiophile Shadowed Philosopher from Ëa Since: Nov, 2009
Shadowed Philosopher
#167: May 5th 2012 at 7:44:01 PM

It's a Japanese word. Doesn't that mean it's awful by definition? tongue

And using the honorifics is showing, because they're what you'd see (well, hear) if you were actually standing by and watching the scene. The point of Show, Don't Tell is to keep people from plain stating facts that are not visible ('he was angry', for instance) and instead describe their visible consequences (as in describe his facial expression, fists clenching, et cetera). Honorifics definitely count as visible consequences.

Shinigan (Naruto fanfic)
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#168: May 5th 2012 at 7:53:29 PM

Don't give me that crap. It's a name.

Honorifics are definitely telling if you need them because that means you aren't showing it through the dialogue and interaction. If you do show it through dialogue and interaction, then honorifics are needless.

NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#169: May 5th 2012 at 7:56:42 PM

Somewhere in Japan, other two fans must be having an equally pointless debate on if using Mister and Miss in their American comics based fanfics counts as Gratuitous English or not.

edited 5th May '12 7:56:59 PM by NapoleonDeCheese

alethiophile Shadowed Philosopher from Ëa Since: Nov, 2009
Shadowed Philosopher
#170: May 5th 2012 at 7:59:17 PM

The dialog includes the honorifics. In universe, the characters are using them, and a hypothetical observer would see them and derive information about social relations from which ones are used. Therefore, it's not a Show, Don't Tell problem. Show, Don't Tell is explicitly when the narrator states facts which aren't immediately visible or available to their nominal perspective. Using honorifics is a perfectly valid way of conveying social relationships, because they are visible.

Shinigan (Naruto fanfic)
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#171: May 5th 2012 at 8:03:36 PM

Meh, agree to disagree. This fic is plague with plenty of non-honorific GJ anyway so it doesn't even matter.

alethiophile Shadowed Philosopher from Ëa Since: Nov, 2009
Shadowed Philosopher
#172: May 5th 2012 at 8:13:56 PM

True enough. I'm not bothered by Gratuitous Japanese myself, but I understand that some people are, and it's true that the fic includes rather a lot of it.

Shinigan (Naruto fanfic)
OokamiShounen Since: Dec, 1969
#173: May 6th 2012 at 9:09:51 AM

I generally dislike the use of Gratuitous Japanese because the writers very rarely actually know Japanese and so they just take a random Japanese word and use it to replace a vaguely equivalent English word in every situation. Awesome lines like "Sasuke, you're such a temee" are the result. The end result is that the dialog and/or the narrator come across as if they were using otaku-speak and I find that very jarring.

I feel basically the same way about honorifics. For one, they frequently Did Not Do The Research about what honorific character X uses for character Y, so whatever subtleties were in the original have now been replaced with varying degrees of wrongness. Second, because the writers generally don't know Japanese, they aren't able to make use of honorifics with any subtlety or skill. However, they are often tempted to try to use the honorifics in some way — like having a character change honorifics to show changes in their relationship but the results usually range from clumsy to wrong.

gwonbush Lurking Puma Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Lurking Puma
#174: May 6th 2012 at 9:39:21 AM

This is definitely why I added the addendum when used properly.

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#175: May 6th 2012 at 10:30:26 AM

They don't have any meaning in English,
That is a fallacy, and you know it. In the right contexts (which is not to say always), you could very well translate something like "Ken-chan" as "Kenny" (e.g. when "Ken" is actually a shortened form of the character's name, thereby clearly signifying that it's used as a diminutive), and "Yamada-sama" as "Lord Yamada" (e.g. when this Yamada is a nobleman), thus your assertation has no basis.

and shouldn't be used in English. It's fine to keep them in when translating from Japanese for the accuracy, but in an English fic it's just as bad as sprinkling random Japanese words in the dialogue.
Again, a fallacy, this time based on the mistaken assumption that every writer who uses Japanese honorifics is just using them for Rule of Cool and regardless of contextual plausibility. A good writer would only use honorifics if the character in question should be speaking Japanese in the scene in question (which is a given for any fanfic in which the source work's characters are actual native Japanese speakers and/or live in Japan or a a Japan-themed society, rather than a case of Translation Convention).

In universe they use honorifics... because in universe they speak Japanese.
How is this a reason for not using honorifics in contexts where attempting to translate them correctly results in very awkward/artificial-sounding English that are often worse than simply leaving them in?

edited 6th May '12 10:33:04 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

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