TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

A Song Of Ice And Fire

Go To

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#47776: Mar 10th 2025 at 3:01:14 PM

I mean if I were to guess, Tywin seeing Jaime and Cersei as his natural born children when they're secret Targaryen bastards while ignoring Tyrion is an entirely POSSIBLE (even probable) twist.

Especially if Tywin assembled that Tyrion was a Targaryen bastard due to the possibility of a dragon tail.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
king15 Have Faun Since: Mar, 2024
Have Faun
#47777: Mar 10th 2025 at 3:05:56 PM

Would that suggest sibling incest is genetic?

On a serious note, while I think it's entirely possible Tyrion or the golden twins might be Targaryen bastards, I'm not sure George would write that. Otherwise, between Aemon, Jon and Aegon, the series would be brimming with secret Targaryens who get revealed. Cersei and Jaime being Targ bastards would have some good dramatic irony, I will say. Tyrion being the only trueborn son of Tywin would be wonderfully ironic.

Edited by king15 on Mar 10th 2025 at 10:07:16 AM

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#47778: Mar 10th 2025 at 3:11:55 PM

Like the Oberyn theory my problem with some of this is, who would reveal it? Why? and what would the point in revealing it now?

Now I guess in this case, it could affect things and change any of the Lannisters feelings towards Dany or hers towards them but it would still be odd with everyone of the previous generation dead.

Who would know? Barristan? He's hinted at knowing secrets about the Dayne/Stark thing but nothing about Lannisters that I recall.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#47779: Mar 10th 2025 at 3:26:39 PM

I mean the obvious reason is that dragons can only be claimed by Targaryens and you have three dragons.

You won't do what the show did and not have Jon riding one in the final battle.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Mar 10th 2025 at 3:26:48 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
king15 Have Faun Since: Mar, 2024
Have Faun
#47780: Mar 10th 2025 at 3:37:11 PM

Three dragons needn't necessarily mean Targaryens or actual Dragon Riders. And if it does, then we've got Jon and Dany (and Aegon?). I don't think I we need Jaime to be a Targaryen for the prophecy to work.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#47781: Mar 10th 2025 at 10:08:16 PM

The prophecy says the dragon has three heads.

So that's actually pretty clear by George R.R. Martin standards. It's in their iconography, the Conquest by Aegon, and other symbolism.

Even Ser Jorah notes it.

It's not going to be Aegon, though, who I'm pretty sure fans have overestimated the importance of. Because we know that Cersei will die at the hands of a younger and more beautiful queen.

It won't be Aegon.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#47782: Mar 10th 2025 at 10:21:38 PM

Though prophecy isn’t always right even in universe.

The Stallion who Mounts the World never came to fruition. Unless you stretch the interpretation to the point of meaninglessness.

Disgusted, but not surprised
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#47783: Mar 11th 2025 at 1:29:30 AM

Er, Cersei dies at the hand of the valonqar, not the younger and more beautiful queen. FWIW, here's the Word of God statement stipulating that not all three heads of the dragon must be Targaryens.

The Stallion who mounts the world might very well be a mare. Like Maester Aemon said, people can get confused by gender.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#47784: Mar 11th 2025 at 1:34:21 AM

Dany herself isn't all that keen on prophecies anymore as of A Dance of Dragons.

He shall be the stallion that mounts the world. Dany knew how it went with prophecies. They were made of words, and words were wind.

Disgusted, but not surprised
jawal Since: Sep, 2018
#47785: Mar 11th 2025 at 2:29:42 AM

[up][up]

The Stallion who mounts the world might very well be a mare
 

About the Stalion, does the revered mothers (or whatever was their name in English) have any documented prophetic abilities?

Like if IIRC they are just the widows of previous Khals, they are not born seers.

I always thought they were just charlatans trying to gain favour with the most powerful of the Khals, "Oh yes, your son will definitely be the most awesome being to ever exist, and he is destined to rule the world. How can he not? He is your flesh and blood"

.......

Even if accurate prophecies exist, it does not mean that every prophecy is one.

Edited by jawal on Mar 11th 2025 at 9:42:19 AM

Every Hero has his own way of eating yogurt
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#47786: Mar 11th 2025 at 2:32:01 AM

Heck, you might as well ask if anyone who has made a prophecy wasn't just full of shit. Maggy the Frog's prophecies so far seem to be accurate, but that's about it.

Disgusted, but not surprised
dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#47787: Mar 11th 2025 at 2:35:14 AM

[up] And Jojen's. But so metaphorically as to be nearly useless.

—-

The gender uncertainty was specifically for "The Prince That Was Promised" prophecy because it's a really old one that was originally in Valyrian.

The Stallion one being made by Dothraki recently shouldn't have that specific issue but they could be spouting bullshit or just be wrong of course.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#47788: Mar 11th 2025 at 2:41:52 AM

If we assume the prophecy was in good faith and based on some real supernatural phenomena, one idea is that other magics can interfere with them and throw them off course. Mirri Maz Duur's Blood Magic might have been potent enough to screw with the prophecy.

Disgusted, but not surprised
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#47789: Mar 11th 2025 at 3:03:11 AM

Melisandre's visions are actually pretty good, too, or so it seems to me ... at least until she tries to identify specific people/places in them, then human fallibility comes into play. Mind you, I tend to think that prophetic dreams (like Jojen Reed's or the Ghost of High Heart) tend to be very metaphorical whereas visions (like the House of the Undying, the various R'hllorite visions) are generally much more photorealistic (except for sigils)

The Dothraki widows form the dosh khaleen.

(Incidentally, I wonder if Maggy the Frog's prophecies are meant to be clear ... to the reader, not to Cersei)

Edited by SeptimusHeap on Mar 11th 2025 at 12:46:24 PM

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#47790: Mar 21st 2025 at 4:12:02 AM

Theorizing a bit ... where do folks expect valonqar to happen?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#47791: Mar 21st 2025 at 4:14:11 AM

If the novels follow the same broad strokes the tv series did, it'll happen near the end of the last book.

Disgusted, but not surprised
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#47792: Mar 21st 2025 at 5:12:43 AM

I am pretty certain that Cersei doesn't have this long, there are other important storylines she's in the way of, but my wondering was more about the "where"

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
king15 Have Faun Since: Mar, 2024
Have Faun
#47793: Mar 21st 2025 at 7:27:12 AM

Jaimie has got to sort out the whole 'getting kidnapped by the Brotherhood via Brienne' thing, so assuming he's the one to kill her (which is likely), it'll maybe be at the end of the next book. Perhaps not blowing everyone up with Wildfire, but Cersei will probably cross some moral threshold (as if she hasn't already) that will probably get Tommen killed, while Jaime goes through a journey of growth and self-discovery. When he finds out whatever she's done, he gives her a nice neck message and finishes the prophecy.

Edited by king15 on Mar 21st 2025 at 2:27:33 PM

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#47794: Mar 21st 2025 at 9:06:24 AM

You know, I have been thinking that the various misogynic references Jaime has about Cersei in AFFC (thinking of her as a whore, about cutting out her tongue etc) and the strong association between strangulation (the prophecied manner of death) and domestic violence are a prelude to Jaime murdering Cersei out of jealousy and/or hatred, not for any noble reason.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#47795: Mar 21st 2025 at 9:12:03 AM

The twist of it being the other brother seems so... tame I hope it's a double bluff or something.

Look at the wiki's theories, the combination of Valonquar being valyrian and it not specified as her family means people think it could be anyone who is a younger sibling.

But that seems rather farfetched to me. It probably will be Jaime

king15 Have Faun Since: Mar, 2024
Have Faun
#47796: Mar 21st 2025 at 9:14:05 AM

I think the final season of the show shows that subverting expectations for the sake of subverting expectations rarely pans out. Cersei thinks it'll be Tyrion, so it's already a bit of a twist if Jaime does it instead and it makes sense for his character arc and the story.

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#47797: Mar 21st 2025 at 9:24:24 AM

And GRRM's not a big fan of subverting expectations for the heck of it.

He's stated before that he doesn't like the idea of pulling the rug out of under people who've already figured out some of the plot twists just because they figured them out. You're basically punishing your readers for getting invested in the mysteries of the narrative if you do that.

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#47798: Mar 21st 2025 at 9:28:36 AM

You are also courting lots of plot holes and thematic inconsistencies if you change things after having foreshadowed them. Besides, Maggy says "the valonqar" not just any random little brother.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
king15 Have Faun Since: Mar, 2024
Have Faun
#47799: Mar 21st 2025 at 9:31:02 AM

GRRM is great at subverting expectations in ways that, retroactively, feel very well built up and make perfect sense for the narrative, tone and characters. The Red Wedding is very well built up, doesn't come out of nowhere and fits the characters and plot, but is still a great swerve. Same with the 'Purple' Wedding, or Ned's death, or the various intentional Anti-Climax Bosses. Sometimes this backfires: I enjoy Quentin's plotline well enough and the way it ends fits the narrative, but it doesn't half make it feel like a Shoot the Shaggy Dog Story. As for the Valonqar, it being Jaime is still a twist and one that suits his character and the narrative very well. It could well work with someone else, but I can't imagine it working better than Jaime.

Edited by king15 on Mar 21st 2025 at 4:31:16 PM

RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#47800: Mar 21st 2025 at 5:04:52 PM

For me it's more a mystery on "will this be the end of Jaime's story" than "will Jaime be the valonqar"? Even outside the prophecy Jaime feels the most narratively fufilling choice for the valonqar


Total posts: 48,115
Top