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MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#43326: Jun 23rd 2018 at 11:32:41 PM

Also here's some TWOW news.

Apparently GRRM put himself into a corner by killing someone off before TWOW that he realized he needed.

Take your bets on who that might be.

I want to say it's Aemon Targaryen.

edited 23rd Jun '18 11:32:59 PM by MadSkillz

"You can't change the world without getting your hands dirty."
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#43327: Jun 24th 2018 at 7:51:14 AM

My guess would be Kevan Lannister and his death is causing stuff to spiral outta hand way faster than it should.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Kostya from Everywhere Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#43328: Jun 25th 2018 at 4:44:25 PM

Hmm, that's interesting. I can't think of who would be causing this much trouble. Kevan is a possibility but I'm a bit confused about why he would cause so much trouble. I'm guessing this is a death that happened in AFFC/ADWD. Otherwise he probably would have realized his error sooner and taken steps to correct it. In terms of PO Vs he killed Quentyn and Arys too but I don't see how they could be causing problems.

Edit: Maybe it's Aemon? Was it ever implied he knew something about Jon?

edited 25th Jun '18 4:45:33 PM by Kostya

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#43329: Jun 27th 2018 at 7:14:00 PM

Aemon doesn't know squat about Jon. Wasn;t implied he either or he wouldn't have been so quick to jump to Daenerys being AA.

If it had to happen in the last two books then the biggest candidates would be Kevan, Pycelle, Aemon, Quentyn or Areo Hotah.

There's also Rorge, Biter, Shagwell. Timeon, Pyg, Ryman Frey, Little Walder, Baelor Blacktyde etc.

"You can't change the world without getting your hands dirty."
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#43330: Jun 28th 2018 at 1:09:23 AM

[up] Areo Hotah is still alive in the books.

Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.
Kostya from Everywhere Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#43331: Jun 28th 2018 at 7:01:01 AM

[up][up]Areo is alive. Did you mean Arys Oakheart?

Edit:Is Coldhands dead(er)? Maybe it's him.

Edited by Kostya on Jun 28th 2018 at 10:03:26 AM

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#43332: Jun 28th 2018 at 8:18:29 PM

Right, I meant Arys.

"You can't change the world without getting your hands dirty."
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#43333: Jul 1st 2018 at 5:12:27 PM

I recall seeing a comment in the Reddit thread (and had deja vu myself) that Diana Gabaldon has told that story in the past, so it might not refer to anyone recent, assuming its accuracy.

That being said, these are my guesses:

  • Aeron would be my first guess because until "The Foresaken" was released, it seemed like there might be a plotline about him organizing resistance to Euron, but then we learn that Euron actually instantly foiled it before it even got off the ground. My one caveat is that it has seemed pretty clear for a while that Euron is headed to Oldtown, and what with the possibility of Asha and/or Theon returning to the Iron Islands, Aeron doesn't really seem like an essential POV.

  • Aemon would also make a lot of sense, maybe even more so than Aeron, because Aemon could have been used for tons of important exposition, but was killed off before doing most of it. It seemed like a deliberately anti-climactic choice, but I could see Martin regretting killing him off in retrospect. Thinking about it, I kind of wonder if some of the Bran/vision stuff and the Three-Eyed Crow being Bloodraven has something to do with compensating for the loss of Aemon.

  • Lastly, I kind of wondered if Martin was referring to Oberyn, because Darkstar was created as a substitute. I kind of doubt it, since the cruel subversion of the Inigo Montoya speech and the Hope Spot for Tyrion seem like very deliberate choices. That being said, killing off Oberyn has a lot of ramifications for the Dorne and Tyrion plotlines.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#43334: Jul 10th 2018 at 10:14:57 AM

New spin off tv show also in the works called Empire of Ash. It's the lead up to the Downfall of Valyria.

The gist of it is this: the multi-season series, Empire of Ash, would be set during the decline and fall of Valyria, recording “the social, economic, and political crises which tore apart the empire from within”, and the Doom. It would include expected elements such as dragons and House Targaryen, a minor family of dragon-lords at the time.

The dragon-lords wouldn’t be the only focus, however: supposedly, much of the prequel takes place on a major melting pot port city in the continent of Sothoryos, which in this series would be relatively analogous to Roman North Africa. Consequently, diversity is more emphasized than in Game of Thrones—not only of race, but of gender and sexual orientation as well. Two main characters are described in this mold: a “platinum blonde black female dragon-rider”, daughter of a white Valyrian father and a foreigner mother, who faces discrimination because of this; and a self-made former slave, described as “a deceptively matronly-looking Asian woman in her 50s, that’s now not only one of the richest citizens but also a major political leader and government intrigue-player.”

The Dragon Demands is confirming it:

Big Picture:

The title of this prequel series is "Empire of Ash".

It is about the events leading up to the Doom of Valyria: the massive volcanic super-eruption which destroyed the Valyrian Freehold in a single day.

It is also the story of the origins of House Targaryen, a minor family of dragon-lords in old Valyria who rose to prominence by fleeing to Westeros just before the Doom - leaving them with the world's only living dragons. This story centers on the decline and fall of Valyria, a colonial empire which ruled half of the known world at its height. It reveals the social, economic, and political crises which tore apart the empire from within - these themes rang eerily familiar to me in today's climate.

Scope:

"Empire of Ash" seems to be planned out to last five seasons or more. It's not just a short one-shot special or something. It's another full TV series. Tone:

Similar to Game of Thrones and the A Song of Ice and Fire novels. Different political factions intriguing against each other - with a larger magical threat looming for the endgame. Themes:

George R.R. Martin has said that Valyria was "like the Roman Republic, with dragons". A major focus of this prequel is on diversity, as it deals with issues of immigration, naturalization, and cultural identity - all within a multi-ethnic democratic state. The central conflict that kicks off the series is, "what does it mean to be 'Valyrian', and who gets to share in that power and prestige?"

According to its summary documents, this story addresses themes of a free republic in decline, the fallout of military and cultural imperialism, colonialism, immigration, and racial diversity (sound familiar?) Did I mention there are dragons? Lots of dragons. Hundreds of dragons.

Diversity:

Multiple members of the primary cast are to be played by actors of color. As a result, something like a third to a half of the cast isn't white. It explicitly instructs this in their casting sheets.

This also extends to diversity of female and LGBT characters, several of whom are also core cast members.

Something like a third to a half of this prequel series is actually set in Sothoryos, George R.R. Martin's fantasy version of Africa, mentioned in ASOIAF and The World of Ice and Fire. Sothoryos and Valyria are the two big axises around which the show revolves: the tension between the capital city and its provinces.

The capital of Sothoryos, one of the major settings of the action, is conceptually supposed to be "Roman North Africa", a mix of Carthage and Constantinople, a major port city with a multi-racial society. Looking at a map, I would guess pre-Doom Zamettar.

Thus, most of the characters there are "non-white": according to the casting calls, they're looking for variously African, Asian, other groups (it's a very mixed, "melting pot" port city).

One of the main characters, a POV core cast member, is a platinum blonde black female dragon-rider - one of her parents was a white Valyrian, the other a foreigner, leading some to deny that she's a "real" Valyrian. One of the other main characters is a self-made former slave, a deceptively matronly-looking Asian woman in her 50s, that's now not only one of the richest citizens but also a major political leader and government intrigue-player.

House Targaryen:

Concept art already exists for three rival political factions in Valyria: the Sphinxes, the Young Dragons, and the Free Holders. The Targaryens may be a minor family of the Young Dragons, but I cannot confirm. I only got a brief and blurry look at artwork of their war banner. It's a dragon of some kind. Aenar Targaryen and his daughter Daenys the Dreamer are also characters but I don't know if they're introduced in Season 1.

World-Building:

This prequel puts a massive amount of work into worldbuilding, fleshing out the lost Atantis-like civilization that was Valyria.

I'm told religious scholar Reza Aslan, author of Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth, was brought in - whether as a consultant or a writer I can't say but I hope it was to impact the religion-building of the world.

Gender and Sexuality have also received a lot of worldbuilding. Apparently, in this series Valyrians don't take issue with homosexuality - one of the leaders of the conservative "Sphinx" faction is publicly in a homosexual relationship and no one thinks it's particularly unusual. Series Bibles:

While I don't have access to these documents on an ongoing basis, I was shown two documents amounting to extensive series bibles. Yes, "Bibles" plural.

The first of these is the Season 1 script outline. 10 episodes. Over 200 pages in length. These are not finished teleplays with dialogue, but they are more than just generalized notes. It's basically a scene-by-scene guide to the entire season! But that isn't even "the" series bible, that's the Season 1 outline (the "script bible"). As for the series bible...well, we tend to use the term "jaw dropping" too casually. But when I glimpsed this document mine did: it looked like a second volume of The World of Ice and Fire. I mean that literally, like you could walk into a book store and find it ready for sale on the shelf. The entire thing is fully illustrated. Professional quality illustrations. Some of them were maps I recognized from wikis, others, particularly the character and location artwork...it looks like they must have secretly hired major artists who did the World book and annual ASOIAF calendars to do new concept art without telling the public about it.

Apparently "about 100 copies currently exist", which, if true, makes it even more insane that this was kept secret for so long.

There was even a new map in it of pre-Doom Valyria, in the style of The Lands of Ice and Fire. I don't know if they photoshopped it from the original or outright hired the original "Lands" artist, but it looked good enough I couldn't tell the difference. A lot of work and money went into this.

And of course, you know, I'm one of the people who writes up encyclopedia info for the wiki here. So when I saw this secret, unreleased internal series bible...not as an abstraction or "ideas we tossed around the office" but a true "Series Bible" of the kind we dream of...just wow. Stunned. My first reaction? "It looks like these people locked themselves in a room for 2 years with a copy of The World of Ice and Fire, and wrote a TV show based on it." Heavily researched, but also including stuff never in the books. It's very clear world-building matters to them, as does staying true to Martin's work. And if the Reza Aslan rumor is true, they clearly care about history as well.

Development Process:

According to the source I spoke with, while several potential prequels are in development at HBO, the two front-runner projects are Jane Goldman's "The Long Night" and Max Borenstein's "Empire of Ash". That isn't to say that HBO will discard the other pitches. They're starting to see this as their Star Wars scale franchise and are planning it out in advance. Consider how many years in advance we heard about anthology movies like "Rogue One" or "Solo", even before the Sequel Trilogy movies were released. Moreover, based on what I've heard, Borenstein's prequel is surprisingly close to beginning production. Apparently, veteran Game of Thrones director Miguel Sapochnik is attached to make the pilot episode for Empire of Ashes (consider his experience filming the extensive dragon battle sequences during the Second Siege of Meereen in Season 6). I'm unsure why or how a prequel could get this far in development without HBO spreading any news about it, or why the Long Night prequel was announced first - especially when that storyline, set so long before the events of ASOIAF has garnered only limited enthusiasm from fans: consider the reaction video that Elio & Linda made at Westeros.org last month - I share a lot of their concerns.

So if these are the two front runners, why did they only announce the Long Night? While giving no word about the only other prequel project that is actually very deep into production? I can only assume it is some sort of legal or budgetary wrangling: based on what I saw of "Empire of Ash", the only reason they haven't gone forward with a pilot order yet seems to be ink on paper, they already have a director in place and everything.

My takeaway:

By the Smith's hammer...the series bible exists. It is astonishing. I hope you all get to see it someday. It's our Holy Grail - our Ark of the Covenant, containing the holy texts of knowledge handed down from the Creator. They know what they're doing. I look forward to this prequel getting a full pickup.

Edited by MadSkillz on Jul 10th 2018 at 1:36:56 AM

"You can't change the world without getting your hands dirty."
Kostya from Everywhere Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#43335: Jul 10th 2018 at 4:58:44 PM

Neat idea but I don't know how I feel about it going for five seasons. That idea seems more suited to a shorter run time. Maybe two or three.

RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from Australia Since: Feb, 2015
#43336: Jul 21st 2018 at 4:12:22 AM

Couple questions I have about bastard surnames

  • Was it ever a practice in Real Life to name bastards after where they come from. The only example I can think of is Leonardo Da Vinci
  • Why is "Pyke" the bastard surname of those in the Iron Islands? All the other ones are based on the environment in same way. Pyke seems like it's based off a type of fish, it doesn't seem to fit the theming

Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#43337: Jul 21st 2018 at 5:50:28 AM

Pyke is the name of the "capital city" island of the Iron Islands.

theLibrarian That all you got? from his own little world Since: Jul, 2009
That all you got?
#43338: Jul 21st 2018 at 9:43:22 AM

If anything since the Iron Islands are primarily sea-focused, "Salt" would be more appropriate.

That is the face of a man who just ate a kitten. Raw.
Rytex That guy with the face from The Shadow Realm (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Married to the music
That guy with the face
#43339: Jul 31st 2018 at 7:01:23 AM

I thought Pyke was the name of the castle itself, not the island. AFAIK, the town even has a different name too. Gonna google and edit real quick, one sec.

EDIT: Oh, okay, so the castle and island share a name, but are two separate entities. And I can't seem to find the name of the city itself.

Edited by Rytex on Jul 31st 2018 at 9:04:22 AM

Qui odoratus est qui fecit.
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#43340: Aug 16th 2018 at 8:28:33 PM

Looks like GRRM just confirmed that Bloodraven took Darkstar with him to the Wall.

"You can't change the world without getting your hands dirty."
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#43341: Aug 16th 2018 at 9:28:25 PM

...I'm guessing you don't mean the Dornish guy who cut Myrcella's ear off, because the timelines don't line up.

Kostya from Everywhere Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#43342: Aug 17th 2018 at 6:22:19 AM

I think he means Dark Sister. That was the Targaryen sword.

theLibrarian That all you got? from his own little world Since: Jul, 2009
That all you got?
#43343: Aug 17th 2018 at 10:13:23 AM

What happened to it, then?

That is the face of a man who just ate a kitten. Raw.
SilentColossus (Old as dirt)
#43344: Aug 17th 2018 at 11:35:25 AM

Bloodraven brought it to the Wall.

Rytex That guy with the face from The Shadow Realm (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Married to the music
That guy with the face
#43345: Aug 17th 2018 at 11:49:34 AM

Which raises the question, does he have it with him? Or did he leave it at the Wall when he went north?

And in the TV Show, is the sword Meera grabs while they escape from his cave "Dark Sister" as well?

Qui odoratus est qui fecit.
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#43346: Aug 25th 2018 at 1:37:36 PM

Yeah, I meant Dark Sister.

Also going by the show, we're heading towards a controversial ending for the series:

“I thought it was really brave,” Bauer said of the ending of the series. “I thought it’d be interesting to see. It’s very true to what ‘Thrones’ is, and knowing how it ends, I don’t actually see how it could end any other way.

“I think the whole series has aimed toward this. I obviously can’t say what it is. I think there will be divisions because people have grown to identify and like and hate various characters, so everybody has their version of how they want it to end based on those things, but looking at it objectively, I think the way it ends is the way it must end, so I’m just going to leave it at that.”

"You can't change the world without getting your hands dirty."
Rytex That guy with the face from The Shadow Realm (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Married to the music
That guy with the face
#43348: Aug 27th 2018 at 7:16:48 AM

Everyone wants a happy ending to Thrones. But Kit Harrington out and out said "If you think this show has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention."

Several characters have said it will be a bittersweet ending, and that's about what I expected, honestly. So who knows? I just hope it lives up to the two years of hype.

Qui odoratus est qui fecit.
Kostya from Everywhere Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#43349: Aug 27th 2018 at 7:38:50 AM

Bittersweet probably just means some people die. It's probably not a TPK or anything like that.

Rytex That guy with the face from The Shadow Realm (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Married to the music

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