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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
ChicoTheParakeet Since: Oct, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#7277: Dec 19th 2023 at 4:43:20 PM

It really depends on how you want to incorporate the humans. I never found humans had much of an impact after Megatron was established in Animated. In Prime their presence only created damsels in distress. Image/Skybound is doing wonders by making humans competent and prominent threats to both factions.

EmeraldSource Since: Jan, 2021
#7278: Dec 19th 2023 at 6:42:59 PM

The primary appeal of Transformers is "robots in disguise," taking on the appearance of real-life vehicles (or real-life items, animals, etc) is easily the core selling point. Lines that focused on alien vehicles have never sold as well. You remove humans from the equation of a battle being fought on Earth would make the narrative infinitely more vapid, and it's such a core part of the mythology now that there are limitations to stories set exclusively on Cybertron. However flawed in other ways, the movies captured the more realistic nature of alien robots fighting on Earth and how humanity would respond to both Autobots and Decepticons.

Comics are just words and pictures. You can do anything with words and pictures.
lbssb The sleepiest good boi Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
The sleepiest good boi
#7279: Dec 19th 2023 at 6:45:57 PM

The problem really lies with bad human characters, like Sam Witwicky, who are obnoxious and unlikable on their own and actively steal attention away from the robots rather than coexisting in the story with them. And examples like that being more visible to the general audience than the ones that actually do work like Sari Sumdac or Charlie Watson.

Edited by lbssb on Dec 19th 2023 at 9:46:15 AM

Disney100 Marathon | DreamWorks Marathon
ShirowShirow Dinosaur Hunter from Land of Maple Syrup (Old as dirt)
Dinosaur Hunter
#7280: Dec 19th 2023 at 6:52:35 PM

Yes, Sari counts before people get all uppity.

[up][up] I've said before the best part of real-world alt-modes is the quick characterization it does. Of course the guy called Perceptor who turns into a microscope is bookish and verbose. Of course the called Huffer who turns into a truck is tough and stubborn. Of course the guy called Megatron who turns into a gun is violent and power-hungry.

You are not alone.
TheEvilDrBolty Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
#7281: Dec 20th 2023 at 10:25:40 AM

I do think that the attitude that the humans are worthless and the series is better off without them has receded quite a bit. I'm not sure when it started to wane, but it did.

I dunno if it started to wane then, but I think the sentiment was quashed a lot by Cyberverse. There are a lot of things I like about Cyberverse, but the absence of humans is felt, and I'm on the side that it's one of the flaws of the show. At any rate, the "no humans please" crowd (which I've not not been part of) got what they wanted and had a chance to evaluate it.

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#7282: Dec 20th 2023 at 9:42:17 PM

I skimmed the recent discussion, so maybe I missed it (or did I already say it?), but I did want to point out that part of the season 3 plot of Beast Wars was that the human allies were a major tide turner in the Great War.

KNOW THAT my Mini Thunderking Razorclaw will likely be in hand by next weekend.

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Dec 20th 2023 at 11:43:34 AM

The sad, REAL American dichotomy
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#7283: Dec 20th 2023 at 9:55:37 PM

And it's pretty simple logic. Protecting humanity is what makes the Autobots good guys and heroes.

That's one way of doing it. But like, it's really reductive to say this is the only way or even a necessary way. Plus in several continuity humans only need protecting coz the Autobots brought the war to Earth.

Or that requires human characters at all. You can protect humanity and have little interactions with them.

The main issue with Humans in most Transformer Media is the inherent difference in power levels. If humans can fight off the Decepticons, then why do they need the Autobots at all. You can also end up like with Prime where the human villains just come across as Villain Sue being able to somehow match technology and fighting skills of aliens with millions of year more experience. Ratchet's there unable to make a new hand for Ultra Magnus. Mech meanwhile makes a 1:1 duplicate of Optimus Prime that can match blows with the original. Animated got around this by making its human villains super villains. Which was a clever work around. But a lot of shows struggle to find a purpose for their human characters. Miko for half of Prime basically just existed to basically have a living death wish and make everything awful for everyone around her by just trying really hard to get herself killed. Raf basically just had super powers the show just never bothered to explain to justify his inclusion in the plot.

The movies struggle a lot with "Why are the humans here". Where the humans are both capable of taking out the decepticons... until they can't. And the human protagonist has to have a macguffin to justify his inclusion in the plot. Bumblebee did it best and that's mostly due to Bumblebee's damage making him dependent on Charlie while he's basically regressed to the level of a child.

The primary appeal of Transformers is "robots in disguise," taking on the appearance of real-life vehicles (or real-life items, animals, etc) is easily the core selling point. Lines that focused on alien vehicles have never sold as well.

Is that true though? 2/3 or more of the Unicron trilogy is alien vehicles. Cyberverse. A huge chunk of Animated. The post movie G1 lines. 1/3 of the War For Cybertron Trilogy... Like... half or more of Prime Wars.

If that was even remotely true, it feels like Hasbro wouldn't be doing this all the time.

Edited by Ghilz on Dec 20th 2023 at 1:07:52 PM

EmeraldSource Since: Jan, 2021
#7284: Dec 20th 2023 at 11:52:57 PM

The toylines that sell the best are the big movies or with an ongoing tv series, which makes obvious sense. Hasbro definitely understands the importance of diversity in the toyline so they wouldn't have some brand-wide rule against alien designs, but things like the War for Cybertron video games would piggyback figures on the Generations / Studio Series line. They've never really dedicated a full line to exclusively Cybertron forms and even still a lot of Cybertron forms are passable as Earth forms anyways, as much of Animated and Cyberverse Earth-bound designs look like exotic, futuristic vehicles. There are a handful of characters like Megatron and Shockwave that gained a tradition of alien forms, but have the name recognition to pull it off.

Comics are just words and pictures. You can do anything with words and pictures.
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#7285: Dec 21st 2023 at 5:02:55 AM

I do think that the attitude that the humans are worthless and the series is better off without them has receded quite a bit. I'm not sure when it started to wane, but it did.

We should thank Sari....and Jack and Raf....and Miko, but only after Season 1.

Aren't the Cybertron/Galaxy Force kids also fairly popular?

Or that requires human characters at all. You can protect humanity and have little interactions with them.

Maybe you could but that's also a missed opportunity for character growth.

The main issue with Humans in most Transformer Media is the inherent difference in power levels. If humans can fight off the Decepticons, then why do they need the Autobots at all.

Because there are things humans may not know about the Decepticons that the Autobots do and other threats (like Unicron) that will also require allies.

Look at the first live-action movie. Yes, Lennox's team were able to call in an air strike to fight off Scorponok but the most they managed was blasting off his tail and even that was more due to luck. Subsequent films show just how effective an Autobot-human alliance can be against Decepticons; the humans have weapons that can hurt Decepticons but don't have adequate ways of tracking them while the Autobots lack the numbers which humans make up for.

You can also end up like with Prime where the human villains just come across as Villain Sue being able to somehow match technology and fighting skills of aliens with millions of year more experience. Ratchet's there unable to make a new hand for Ultra Magnus. Mech meanwhile makes a 1:1 duplicate of Optimus Prime that can match blows with the original.

Ratchet couldn't make a new had for Ultra Magnus due to lack of resources. I feel complaining about Mech creating a robot that can match a Transformer's strength is rather arbitrary since the Autobots had never faced something like that before and Mech are supposed to be exceptional among humans.

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#7286: Dec 21st 2023 at 5:38:15 AM

Maybe you could but that's also a missed opportunity for character growth.

RID and MTME/Lost Light both feature huge character growth and basically no humans. The notion is silly and patently untrue.

Subsequent films show just how effective an Autobot-human alliance can be against Decepticons; the humans have weapons that can hurt Decepticons but don't have adequate ways of tracking them while the Autobots lack the numbers which humans make up for.

That's also not really correct? It's the humans who track the Decepticons to Shanghai. And it's not like the Autobots ever find Megatron hiding in Africa. Or Laserbeak going around on a murder rampage.

Ratchet couldn't make a new had for Ultra Magnus due to lack of resources.

Ratchet had the US Government he could call on for resources. Pray tell how many ressources a hand requires vs making a giant Mech. Pray tell how the Terrorist Organization has more supplies than the Government. Heck later he has the Deception's entire warship in resources.

Edited by Ghilz on Dec 21st 2023 at 8:43:36 AM

ChicoTheParakeet Since: Oct, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#7287: Dec 21st 2023 at 12:00:34 PM

Terrorists control the government, the Autobots are aided by a rebel organization created by ex-government officials.

As much as I liked Prime (to the point that I got my blu-rays signed by both Cullen and Welker,) it lacks common sense. I’m all for hindering your heroes but common sense takes priority and even then, Magnus wasn’t hindered by his prosthetic.

Edited by ChicoTheParakeet on Dec 21st 2023 at 3:22:52 PM

Chortleous she/her friend to the hooved (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: She does the things you do, but she is an IBM
she/her friend to the hooved
#7288: Dec 21st 2023 at 3:57:54 PM

Looking at this cynically, live-action movies definitely need humans, though, both because CGI is expensive and because the giant robots aren't really 'characters', not in the eyes of critics, the majority of viewers, or for that matter most of the people making decisions behind the scenes. They're effects, just like the cantina aliens or kaiju or... every flashy bioluminescent thing in Avatar. Humans are characters.

I don't have much faith that people will unlearn that, not while xenofiction is still just a weird novelty subgenre largely restricted to young reader books. Empathizing with nonhuman characters is difficult unless they look and behave basically like humans (like in every space opera ever, even when they're not working within TV constraints—what does that tell you?), or are designed specifically to be 'cute'. Transformers are usually neither.

Edited by Chortleous on Dec 21st 2023 at 6:06:20 AM

ChicoTheParakeet Since: Oct, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#7289: Dec 21st 2023 at 6:01:06 PM

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/img_3881.jpeg

I know this image is taken from TFWiki and Botbots isn’t for everyone but I found it to be a great reaction image. My main argument is that I think Burgertron looks adorable.

No, aliens don’t have to behave like humans and that helps establish differences but when they do, it’s easier to relate to them.

Edited by ChicoTheParakeet on Dec 21st 2023 at 9:10:17 AM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#7290: Dec 21st 2023 at 9:00:16 PM

RID and MTME/Lost Light both feature huge character growth and basically no humans. The notion is silly and patently untrue.

Regardless, we've had character growth when humans are present, so it's not a binary choice.

That's also not really correct? It's the humans who track the Decepticons to Shanghai.

With the Autobots' help. Ironhide's first line in the movie is "I smell him", referring to Demolishor.

And it's not like the Autobots ever find Megatron hiding in Africa. Or Laserbeak going around on a murder rampage.

Obviously, the Decepticons got better at hiding (some of them at least). It doesn't make the Autobot-human alliance any less effective.

Ratchet had the US Government he could call on for resources. Pray tell how many ressources a hand requires vs making a giant Mech. Pray tell how the Terrorist Organization has more supplies than the Government. Heck later he has the Deception's entire warship in resources.

MECH was able to create Nemesis using a transformation cog they got from Starscream and some understanding of Transformer anatomy thanks to the time they captured and partly dissected Breakdown. And even then, the best they could do was create a remote-controlled drone that had mind of its own.

Ultra Magnus also came in after the Autobots' original base had been destroyed in season 2 and let's not forget that Autobot and human bodies are obviously very different as exemplified when Raf nearly dies because of Ratchet's lack of knowledge on human medicine.

ShirowShirow Dinosaur Hunter from Land of Maple Syrup (Old as dirt)
Dinosaur Hunter
#7291: Dec 21st 2023 at 9:13:39 PM

There have been moments, even in the bay films, where humans and Autobots fighting alongside each other almost felt heartwarming.

Like there's a moment in the otherwise-I-consider-wretched Last Knight where a bunch of humans hunker down next to Hound in a foxhole while he shouts encouragement and they all start blasting away at an army of demonic looking decepticons (Or terrorcons or whatever the fuck they where who cares) and it just... Kinda felt right. Mere mortals helping our guardian angels fight off the face of evil.

I've said before one of my favorite human characters in the franchise is Marissa Faireborn, because she's a good fighter but she stays in her weight class. She can tip the scales in a fight between a Autobot and Decepticon, or rescue an Autobot otherwise indisposed by some other threat, but she can't take on a Decepticon on her own. That's exactly the niche humans should fill in a series like this. Unlike characters like Kicker or how the human military in the bay films is usually portrayed. When that happens they start to really suck.

You are not alone.
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#7292: Dec 22nd 2023 at 1:34:57 PM

Obviously, the Decepticons got better at hiding

Considering Megatron's alt mode in the 3rd film is a truck that doesnt exist IRL, and Soundwave's alt mode is a super modern high priced car in the savannah, saying the Decepticons got better at hiding is only an indictment about how awful the Autobots are at finding them.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#7293: Dec 23rd 2023 at 8:20:35 AM

We continue Obscure Characters Month with Chris Mc Feely this week. Today, it's the Bus bot that could(n't): Transit!

Also got an update from Rodimus Primal as well, on everybody's favourite tiny powerhouse who can't take a shoulder hit, Brawn!

Also, the only transformer to marry a human.

....huzzah?

One Strip! One Strip!
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#7294: Dec 24th 2023 at 12:23:05 PM

Shout out to the USPS for not only delivering on a Sunday, but on a holiday Sunday, too! They received, processed, and delivered my Mini Thunderking Kinglion all on Christmas Eve morning! I'll transform it and add it to the combiner shortly.

  • Already I can tell that despite being one of the cheaper pieces, it's also pretty much the biggest and heftiest.
  • Okay, I transformed it from bot to beast, and then to build (combiner). For that last part, I had to find a separate video since the instructions definitely weren't large or clear enough.
  • You can attach Firmini's wings to Kingmini in Beast Mode, too. Anyone who has any familiarity with Zoids: Fuzors should see where that could go.
    • Kingmini is surprisingly large on its own, but especially with the wings attached. Even though it's short, I could definitely see it trying to step up to Dragon Megatron, especially when they're both in Beast Mode.
  • Upon combining it with the other pieces released so far, I can tell that the connection between Kingmini and Thormini could've used a bit more work. It's the figure's overall waist, but there's not enough there to keep them attached.
  • Kingmini has some smaller, detachable shoulder cannons in both modes (not the big main ones). I don't know what I'm supposed to do with them in the combined mode, though.

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Dec 25th 2023 at 2:02:52 PM

The sad, REAL American dichotomy
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#7295: Dec 25th 2023 at 7:37:43 PM

For Christmas, Wheeljack builds stuff, Ironhide gets a gun, and Cliffjumper gets shot.

That went well.cool

One Strip! One Strip!
DrPsyche Avatar by Leafsnake from Hawaii Since: May, 2012
Avatar by Leafsnake
#7296: Dec 27th 2023 at 12:26:24 AM

Got the Gamer Edition Optimus Prime. He's decent, easily the best of the Gamer line, even if his arms don't quite plug in in alt-mode.

Honestly the whole line feels under cooked. Megatron and Barricade are really flawed (Barricade's arms are fucked), Bumblebee and Cliffjumper are just ok. I really don't like the detachable arms swap out the gun gimmick they all have. Arguable accurate to the games, but I wish the guns could just plug over the hands/arms instead.

I'm not feeling the upcoming Starscream either. Might just go for the Reactivate line instead. A shame, because the WFC/FOC aesthetic is pretty cool and I really wanted a Barricade from them.

Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#7297: Dec 28th 2023 at 8:44:41 PM

A video detailing the unmade TFA Season 4 (with more details and clarifications):

And another video detailing the earliest foundation of the Aligned Continuity and TFP:

It's interesting stuff, and how the live-action movies at influenced a lot of decisions and designs of the Transformers.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#7298: Dec 30th 2023 at 12:35:25 PM

And we have reached the end of Obscure Characters Month, with that dude who got eaten by Sharkticons: Kranix!

One Strip! One Strip!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#7299: Jan 3rd 2024 at 5:40:58 PM

I want Armada Sideswipe to get a Legacy toy.

Just so he finally has a good looking toy.

That is all.

One Strip! One Strip!
Avenger09 Since: May, 2014
#7300: Jan 3rd 2024 at 5:47:26 PM

Found a pretty phenomenal fan animation starring the fan favourite fanatic Tarn and the ever unflappable Knock Out.

I do love how unpaused Knock Out is, it fits his personality and is probably something he's used to as a Decepticon doctor.


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