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shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#1: Nov 13th 2010 at 10:38:41 PM

Gattaca Babies is a trope about artificial reproduction according to it's write up but a large number of the examples are just anyone who is genetically engineered regardless of if they're actually examples of artificial reproduction or not. Do we have a separate trope for Genetic Engineering? And if not should we split the trope? There is Genetic Engineering Is the New Nuke, but that's only for superpowers.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#3: Nov 13th 2010 at 11:59:27 PM

That's really more of a supertrope and doesn't have much to do with it's subtrope. It includes robots. And magical homonculi. Or anything else that looks human but isn't.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#4: Nov 14th 2010 at 12:42:28 AM

Genetic Engineering is a redirect for LEGO Genetics currently. Genetically Modified Human is a trope you can take to YKTTW.

Fight smart, not fair.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#5: Nov 14th 2010 at 2:52:54 AM

Should I cut the bad examples off the page then? I don't want to do too much to the trope unilaterally.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
SomeSortOfTroper Since: Jan, 2001
#6: Nov 14th 2010 at 10:36:13 AM

I had to check the date for that post and the clear up I saw on the page history because it's looking fine for me.

Really I tried to briefly read everyone and they all seem fine.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#7: Nov 15th 2010 at 7:30:46 AM

I keep getting tripped up by "gattaca" as a mnemonic for DNA sequences and thinking the trope is about custom tailored babies, not artificial wombs and the like. By that definition, the Humanx Commonwealth entry I added is not technically correct, because while Flinx and his brethren were indeed artifically created; they were implanted in human host mothers for gestation.

Unless that counts and I am doubly misreading the article.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
SomeSortOfTroper Since: Jan, 2001
#8: Nov 15th 2010 at 8:46:16 AM

No that's fine. The very first example falls under that. As long as it wasn't done the traditional way (mommy and daddy make a special hug, best sperm wins, nine months of fat jokes).

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#9: Nov 15th 2010 at 9:31:03 AM

So, shimaspawn's interpretation of the trope was incorrect, and we can Move Along, Nothing to See Here?

Hmm, got a different problem, though. The trope description seems to be focusing on artificial reproduction as a setting element rather than just something that happens. The example I cited would not match in that 99.9% of babies in the Commonwealth are done the normal way; it's just a rogue group of geneticists that try to make supermen in a test tube.

I think the description needs expansion.

edited 15th Nov '10 9:32:59 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#10: Nov 15th 2010 at 10:54:37 AM

Yeah, the description is focusing on the artificial gestation element. Should we split the two? Should we expand the definition? That's my issue. I think artificial gestation is a trope of it's own. Should we split it off maybe and leave Gattaca Babies for babies who are just genetically modified? There'd be overlap yes, but there would be characters who only fall into one or the other as well.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
DoktorvonEurotrash Lex et Veritas from Not a place of honour (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#12: Nov 15th 2010 at 12:04:37 PM

Trope 1: Genetically manipulating or synthesizing the preborn. Trope 2: Gestating babies somewhere other than in a female uterus.

Sounds distinct to me.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#13: Nov 15th 2010 at 12:10:16 PM

Why don't we use Gattaca Babies for trope 1. And Uterine Replicator for trope 2. We just need a pair of clear definitions and to split the examples then.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#14: Nov 15th 2010 at 12:12:06 PM

Sounds great to me.

Edit: And Genetic Engineering needs to be a Super-Trope.

edited 15th Nov '10 12:13:00 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#15: Nov 15th 2010 at 12:17:53 PM

Of Gattaca Babies? Agreed.

edited 15th Nov '10 12:17:58 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#16: Nov 15th 2010 at 12:33:36 PM

How are these for proposed explanations?

Trope 1

One of the biggest down falls of LEGO Genetics is the fact that it's hard to modify an adult. They're already done growing and the idea seems a bit far fetched to most people. If you modify them when they're still in the womb however then it's far more plausible.

Gattaca Babies are what occurs when you create, or genetically engineer embryos and then implant them either back into their mothers or into a Uterine Replicator.

The resulting child is often seen either as more perfect and wonderful than normal people, or as freaks and monsters who should have never existed and now must be destroyed. This is often a source of Stock Superpowers.

Trope 2

A Uterine Replicator is a way of growing a child outside the human body by using technology, magic, or a combination of the two in place of the mother's womb. The reasons for this are many and varied.

Sometimes it's done to combat problems with sterility. Sometimes it's done as a means of population control. Sometimes it's done as a way to protect the mother from Death by Childbirth. Sometimes it's done to let two men reproduce together without invoking Mister Seahorse.

This is often staple of Dystopian futures, especially those in which sex is outlawed.

If the child is also genetically engineered see Gattaca Babies.

edited 15th Nov '10 12:44:19 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
SomeSortOfTroper Since: Jan, 2001
#17: Nov 15th 2010 at 1:04:20 PM

No, with Gattaca Babies, I would take about wanting to perfect humanity but, ooh, that nature beating out that nuture, so let's genetically manipulate babies so we give them all the right start.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#18: Nov 15th 2010 at 1:11:08 PM

Pretty good. Edit Trope 1 to this:

One of the biggest downfalls of LEGO Genetics is the fact that it's hard to modify an adult. They're already done growing and the idea seems a bit far fetched to most people. If you modify them before they're born, however, then it's far more plausible. Gattaca Babies are what occurs when you create, or genetically engineer embryos and then implant them into a womb (either the original mother's or, especially in the case of completely artificial genomes, a host mother's) or a Uterine Replicator.

The resulting child is often seen either as more perfect and wonderful than normal people, or as a freak/monster who should have never existed and must now be destroyed — and sometimes both at the same time by different groups of people. This is often a source of Stock Superpowers. It's also frequently the purview of the Evilutionary Biologist, who believes that humanity can be "improved" if they would only allow him to tinker with nature a bit. What Could Possibly Go Wrong??

It is not uncommon to have settings, especially in Science Fiction of the Dystopian variety, in which most or all children are produced via genetic engineering/cloning. In almost all of these settings, there will be a group of people who want to make babies the "natural" way. Whether they're right depends on which side of Science Is Bad the Aesop of the work falls on.

edited 15th Nov '10 1:13:22 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#19: Nov 15th 2010 at 1:18:32 PM

I added a line to get Some Sort Of Troper's argument in there. If these are good then I'll stick them up on the page and see about starting the split.

One of the biggest down falls of LEGO Genetics is the fact that it's hard to modify an adult. They're already done growing and the idea seems a bit far fetched to most people. If you modify them before they're born, however, then it's far more plausible. Gattaca Babies are what occurs when you create, or genetically engineer embryos and then implant them into a womb (either the original mother's or, especially in the case of completely artificial genomes, a host mother's) or a Uterine Replicator.

The resulting child is often seen either as more perfect and wonderful than normal people, or as a freak/monster who should have never existed and must now be destroyed — and sometimes both at the same time by different groups of people. This is often a source of Stock Superpowers. It's also frequently the purview of the Evilutionary Biologist, who believes that humanity can be "improved" if they would only allow him to tinker with nature a bit. What Could Possibly Go Wrong??

It is not uncommon to have settings, especially in Science Fiction of the Dystopian variety, in which most or all children are produced via genetic engineering/cloning. This is often done in an effort to "perfect" humanity in a belief that nature is stronger than nurture. In almost all of these settings, there will be a group of people who want to make babies the "natural" way. Whether they're right depends on which side of Science Is Bad the Aesop of the work falls on.

edited 15th Nov '10 1:24:45 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#21: Nov 15th 2010 at 1:23:38 PM

I added your changes to mine. Does the combined idea work?

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#22: Nov 15th 2010 at 1:26:59 PM

I think so. You might want to wait for a few more folks to chime in on it.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#23: Nov 18th 2010 at 11:33:21 AM

Well, we seem to have a distinct lack of people interested, so go ahead and whack away.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
GiantSpaceChinchilla Since: Oct, 2009
#24: Nov 18th 2010 at 11:51:04 AM

About Uterine Replicator is it the "birth mother" or "mother in general" or "female"? such as the surrogates in the Humanx Commonwealth example.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#25: Nov 18th 2010 at 11:54:49 AM

So it seems. I'm going to post up the descriptions, but I'll need some help with the examples.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

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