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FrozenWolf2 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#92801: Jun 19th 2025 at 5:57:29 PM

The issue there is Kubo WRITES like that all the time

A character when introduced can and will act VASTLY different later to the point Kubo loves to throw you off with the first impression

So i don' think its all The SS got popular and they got made the good guys

This is an outrage against Luminara!
doineedaname from Eastern US Since: Nov, 2010
#92802: Jun 19th 2025 at 6:07:30 PM

'The arc literally starts with Mayuri having his men gather up a district and kill them to keep the "balance"'

With them being figured out because they had shoes, unlike the peasants IIRC.

MiinU Since: Jun, 2011
#92803: Jun 19th 2025 at 6:13:41 PM

[up][up]I'd consider that wildly inconsistent writing.

Renji: (to Rukia at their wedding) 'Yeah, so... remember that time when me and your brother got sent to Karakura Town to haul you back to SS to kill your ass? And remember how I made fun of you for it? *sighs* Good times...'

Yeah, that guy definitely wasn't a villain. Also, agreed about Yamamoto, Byakuya, and Sui-Féng, 'cuz they were just as bad. Mayuri, Gin, and Aizen were worse.

Edited by MiinU on Jun 19th 2025 at 6:14:17 AM

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#92804: Jun 19th 2025 at 6:18:32 PM

Mayuri becoming a Comedic Sociopath rather than just a regular one gets talked about a lot, but IMO Byakuya's turn is just as jarring to me. He goes from more or less Bleach's answer to Sakazuki, a government attack dog so blindly devoted to "the law" that he'd butcher his little sister if the higher-ups asked him to, to said sister's unflappable protector.

TropayXion The i. one. from HEART Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
The i. one.
#92805: Jun 19th 2025 at 6:28:32 PM

Could well be that Renji's character in particular was rewritten after his first appearance. It always felt weird how he was such a blatantly evil piece of shit and backpedalled super hard the very next time we see him, while Byakuya felt much more organic in his villainy > reformation. At the very least, he had a reasoning for his initial dickery beyond "oh yeah i was just super mad lol".

Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#92806: Jun 19th 2025 at 6:32:23 PM

I'm pretty sure the entire point of chapter 167 was to show Byakuya realizing his philosophy was wrong and getting character development. Renji on the other hand, I don't think Kubo had any concrete ideas for his character at his point of introduction.

MiinU Since: Jun, 2011
#92807: Jun 19th 2025 at 6:34:04 PM

[up]I'd say the same about Sui-Féng. She went from soulless attack drone/female Judge Dread, to instantly simping over Yoruichi again after a good cry.

Everyone else considers it an emotional moment, whereas i was like: "Really...? Just like that?"

Freshwater Since: Apr, 2023
#92808: Jun 19th 2025 at 11:30:16 PM

The relationships between Byakuya, Renji, and Rukia all feel kind of off because of their earliest interactions. It's less, but still an issue in the manga because they don't interact as much in that medium but it's still weird that any of them like each other let alone have the strong and friendly relationships they do in the anime.

People have mentioned before how cold and mean Byakuya and Renji are to Rukia. But, Byakuya is also incredible cold and dismissive of Renji after the latter has his character arc during the Soul Society. Renji even says that Byakuya has never cared about his subordinates which seems pretty at odds with the tough but fair older brother figure that Byakuya is supposed to be. Some of the differences are clearly the result of character development, but other parts like with Renji seems to be do to not having the character fleshed out.

Edited by Freshwater on Jun 19th 2025 at 11:32:17 AM

FrozenWolf2 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#92809: Jun 19th 2025 at 11:42:02 PM

I feel like Kubo likens character revelations like their big plot points so they should be surprising

hence why its almost impossible to give a say on a character unless they fucking die

and this is bleach where even the undead can be turned into zombies and live again

This is an outrage against Luminara!
burninganimefan357 Since: Oct, 2012
#92810: Jun 20th 2025 at 1:01:15 AM

[up][up][up] Soifon was basically raised by her family to simp for Yoruichi. Then when Yoruichi disappeared and got exiled, she tried to convince herself that she hated Yoruichi and didn't respect her anymore but she still couldn't erase her devotion to Yoruichi. And she admits that she wanted Yoruichi to take her with her when she left.

And its pretty common for the soulless attack drone / Judge Dredd types to show a hidden side to them.

[up][up]Byakuya being tough but fair older brother is only really after his loss against Ichigo. Renji saying Byakuya didn't care for his subordinates was before that. And he was mostly talking about the relationship between himself and Byakuya which was coloured by their relationship with Rukia and Renji's drive to surpass Byakuya. We don't really see Byakuya interact with the rest of squad 6. And post Soul Society arc I think Byakuya does have more respect for Renji. There are still some jokes at his expense but that's more Renji being a bit of a butt monkey rather than Byakuya being cold.

Renji being so villainous in his initial appearance I could see him as over compensating in order to not seem like he is favouring Rukia since he was with Byakuya at the time. And also he could be seen as the villain in Rukia's eyes instead of Byakuya.

[up] You're exaggerating how much differently the characters act.

People act differently depending on the circumstances, who they're with, what mood they are in.

Do you act the same way when you're interacting with your boss compared to your co-worker or family or loved ones?

Rynnec Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#92811: Jun 20th 2025 at 1:20:01 AM

When you learn Kubo was inspired by Saint Seiya, it becomes obvious the Gotei 13 were always meant to become allies. Their arc mirrors the Gold Saints' almost beat for beat.

As for their characterization: Kubo just likes writing psychotic and morally unscrupulous characters. There is a chance he was told to tone some of them down like with Renji and Mayuri, but otherwise it's consistent with how he prefers shadier characters.

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#92812: Jun 20th 2025 at 1:23:58 AM

Renji's extra funny cause he's a bit of a Byakuya bootlicker on introduction, an interaction more common for the V Cs of the traitor Captains later on. tongue

MiinU Since: Jun, 2011
#92813: Jun 20th 2025 at 2:36:50 AM

Soifon was basically raised by her family to simp for Yoruichi.

No, she was told by her family that she was to devote her life to Yoruichi and even sacrifice it for her, if need be. Similar to how members of the US Armed Forces swear an oath to our Constitution and to even give their lives in service to our country should the need arise. Sui-Féng went WAY beyond that to being thirsty for Yoruichi.

Still, despite any lingering affections she had for her, you'd think she wouldn't be so quick to take Yoruichi back, given Yoruichi had abandoned her without a second thought. She found time to rescue the Vizards and grab some gear before fleeing SS, but couldn't spare a few seconds to even say goodbye to her Padiwan? I'd expect Sui-Féng to still have some misgivings, all things considered.

Renji being so villainous in his initial appearance, I could see him as overcompensating in order to not seem like he's favoring Rukia since he was with Byakuya at that time.

That's a generous interpretation, given Renji has never shown any degree of forethought. Certainly not to that extent. I'd chalk it up to Early-Installment Weirdness since the Shinigami were originally the antagonists of the SS Arc. Which is why Byakuya was initially built up as the final hurdle Ichigo was going to have to clear in order to save Rukia.

The twist with Aizen being the real villain behind everything was something Kubo admitted he hadn't thought up until after killing him offnote . So had Kubo stuck to the original script, it's likely either Byakuya or Yamamoto would've been the main villain of the SS Arc.

KnightofLsama Since: Sep, 2010
#92814: Jun 20th 2025 at 3:05:07 AM

Renji being so villainous in his initial appearance I could see him as over compensating in order to not seem like he is favouring Rukia since he was with Byakuya at the time. And also he could be seen as the villain in Rukia's eyes instead of Byakuya.

I think it's simpler than that. It's a bit of a running theme that Renji sucks at trash talk. He always falls flat in one way or another, sometimes by crossing the line... but only once.

burninganimefan357 Since: Oct, 2012
#92815: Jun 20th 2025 at 3:20:03 AM

[up][up] We see no indication that Yoruichi tried to contact anyone else including her own Vice Captain at the time. Yoruichi might have felt that trying to contact any of them would put them under suspicion.

After their initial fight, Soi Fon seems to be laying the blame more on Urahara. And after Aizen's betrayal I believe SS would have also realised that it was Aizen responsible for the events of TBTP.

People keep saying that Kubo didn't originally plan the Aizen was the mastermind during the SS arc but I've never been able to find a link to that interview. Do you have it?

Edited by burninganimefan357 on Jun 20th 2025 at 3:26:23 AM

MiinU Since: Jun, 2011
#92816: Jun 20th 2025 at 4:08:46 AM

We see no indication that Yoruichi tried to contact anyone else including her own Vice Captain at that time.

I said before she fled SS, not afterward. My point was that Yoruichi just up and vanished without so much as a 'see-you-later' to Sui-Féng. She ghosted her without a second thought.

People keep saying that Kubo didn't originally plan the Aizen was the mastermind during the SS Arc, but I've nevver been able to find a link to that interview. Do you have it?

That interview was from almost a decade ago, so I paraphrased it from memory. I don't have a link to it, but it was from around the time of the FKT Arc, iirc.

Rynnec Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#92817: Jun 20th 2025 at 4:36:05 AM

So basically more he said she said stuff without an actual, verifiable source.

Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#92818: Jun 20th 2025 at 5:59:20 AM

According to the bleach wiki, an interview from 2008 at jump festival.

Kubo: “At first I did not plan Aizen to become the shadow behind everything. I just thought he will become the enemy after he was killed The flow to Kubo’s plan There was trouble in Seireitei—> that’s it! Lets kill Aizen!—> The most exciting person to make him/her the culprit—> That’s it! Let’s make himself the culprit!

MiinU Since: Jun, 2011
#92819: Jun 20th 2025 at 6:47:04 AM

[up]Wow, 2008. It was from further back than I remembered. The wording is slightly different from the translation I saw, but that's pretty much it. Thanks. [tup]

Freshwater Since: Apr, 2023
#92820: Jun 20th 2025 at 7:01:06 AM

Sui-Féng's character seemed consistent to me. The implication I got, during the fight between her and Yoruichi, was that Sui-Féng had strong romantic feelings for Yoruichi. When the latter left without saying anything, Sui-Féng became much more closed off and villainous. It also destroyed her self-esteem which pushed her into become the "perfect" captain of the second divsion. Further, Sui-Féng actions during Soul Society were heavily influenced by her desire to get revenge on Yoruichi. The problem is that the manga and to a much greater extent the anime, then portrayed their relationship in a much more comedic light instead of the dramatic one and also played Sui-Féng feelings for laughs.

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#92821: Jun 22nd 2025 at 12:04:37 PM

The implication to me was that after Soi Fon broke down in the middle of the fight, she and Yoruichi talked it out off-screen, which is why Soi Fon is on the side of the good guys when Aizen makes his big move.

MiinU Since: Jun, 2011
#92822: Jun 22nd 2025 at 12:45:25 PM

[up]Didn't seem like it to me. Yoruichi stood there frozen and watched while Sui-Féng bawled her eyes out. The next time we see them is when Isane alerted the Gotei of Aizen, Gin, and Tousen's betrayal and, from the look of things, Sui-Féng was still crying and Yoruichi hadn't budged from where she'd been standing before.

So, if anything, it was Isane's PSA that got Sui-Féng re-ally with Yoruichi since she now had three traitors to deal with. If Yoruichi bothered to explain anything to Sui-Féng, it was likely after Aizen and the murder crew fled SS.

GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#92823: Jun 22nd 2025 at 3:51:46 PM

[up] It makes you feel sorry for Sui Feng. It's not enough that Yoruichi just shows up after vanishing without explanation, and then some of her fellow captains just turn traitor.

"Fan, a Mega Man character."
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#92824: Jun 22nd 2025 at 4:55:37 PM

from the look of things, Sui-Féng was still crying and Yoruichi hadn't budged from where she'd been standing before.

No? The report shows them standing together and next time they appear they're doing a combo attack on Aizen, which indicates a regained level of camaraderie and trust between them. I do believe we are meant to infer they sorted some of their shit out.

MiinU Since: Jun, 2011
#92825: Jun 22nd 2025 at 5:16:47 PM

[up]That'd have to be an extremely quick conversation, 'cuz hardly any time passed between Sui-Féng's sobfest and Isane's PSA. So unless Yoruichi explained the situation auctioneer style, I'm gonna assume she hashed things out with Sui-Féng later. As in, after Aizen and the murder crew peaced out.


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