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blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#85501: Nov 27th 2018 at 7:50:45 PM

I kinda like how open and carefree Charlotte is. Charlotte doesn't affix to preestablished standards. Charlotte just does Charlotte, and does Charlotte proudly. It's actually kind of refreshing.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
FrozenWolf2 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#85502: Nov 27th 2018 at 7:57:07 PM

Kubo's problem is He made Yhwach far to utterly evil for the sake of being Evil

It be one thing if Yhwach was horrendously cruel, amoral and pragmatic Ala the first attack which paints the picture that a long time ago Yhwach and Yamamoto were polar opposites when they fought 'IE Yhwach was the more mellowed out one, and Yamamoto was the Devil'

by the second invasion though Yhwach has basically become Kill his own cause they're within range of being killed

This is an outrage against Luminara!
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#85503: Nov 27th 2018 at 8:00:18 PM

Soul Society is bad, yes...the difference is a lot of lives depend on them even so. The difference? SS's corruption does verge to silly levels at times...I mean, Aizen massacres the Central 46 and a brand new group, just as bad as the old instantly gets inducted?

The problem is SS can be reformed...the Vandenreich cannot be. The entire center of Vandenreich government is Yhwach. He's their leader, the center of their history, culture and religion all in one.

And when he is again, a strange fusion of Jesus and Hitler, that results in the Vandenreich being the darker shade of black.

OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#85504: Nov 27th 2018 at 8:03:20 PM

The world depends on it because SS made it that way in the first place. The world didn't need SS originally and even now the only reason SS has any value is the Lynchpin that keeps the system they built around them together.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
Rynnec Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#85505: Nov 27th 2018 at 8:06:19 PM

[up][up]That sounds pretty arbitrary to me. SS can be redeemed but the Vandenreich can't because...reasons? The whole Yhwach thing fall pretty flat since a number of the Vandenreich have already turned against him in the main series, so you can't really pull the "they're too indoctrinated to be reformed" card. Not to mention that reformation and redemption don't really exist in Bleach, people just switch sides when it suits their agenda, which is something I honestly appreciate about it.

Edited by Rynnec on Nov 27th 2018 at 10:06:40 AM

FrozenWolf2 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#85506: Nov 27th 2018 at 8:15:17 PM

Kubo's very limited in his writing style... like He wants Aizen, Ginjou, and Yhwach to be multifaceted individuals yet he constantly gives them moments of over the top evilness for the sake of cinematic flare

Kubo's pretty much too tied to the Shonen concept of "You have to have the Moral Right to Win the Fight"

This is an outrage against Luminara!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#85507: Nov 27th 2018 at 8:21:32 PM

[up][up][up][up] Is the new central 46 just as bad? They imprison Aizen and try to stop Kyoraku, but ultimately do not do so.

It's pretty clear that Soul Society is wrong on a fundamental level, but Kubo had no way to address that because of the Captains being the only reason the Japanese kept reading Bleach. So they, and by extension Ichigo and pals, are awkwardly planted as the good guys championing the terrible status quo.

They do mention that SS has changed due to Ichigo and is becoming more lenient/fair. That angle could be explored upon more.

The Shinigami represent 'balance' in their view, but in reality they apparently took that role for themselves and the hand of the soul king representing 'stagnation' decided to side with them. Meanwhile the arm of 'progress' sided with the Quincy, who Yhwach sees as bringing change - and completely doing away with the old world to achieve this.

Ichigo is a Quincy himself, a catalyst of change. But he's more balanced than Yhwach, changing the current world for the better without tossing it out completely.

Edited by Saiga on Nov 28th 2018 at 2:22:20 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#85508: Nov 27th 2018 at 8:28:53 PM

The world depends on it because SS made it that way in the first place. The world didn't need SS originally and even now the only reason SS has any value is the Lynchpin that keeps the system they built around them together.

Thus far, we have no idea if it wasn't necessary to do so as even Aizen admits they have a point to it.

[up][up]That sounds pretty arbitrary to me. SS can be redeemed but the Vandenreich can't because...reasons? The whole Yhwach thing fall pretty flat since a number of the Vandenreich have already turned against him in the main series, so you can't really pull the "they're too indoctrinated to be reformed" card. Not to mention that reformation and redemption don't really exist in Bleach, people just switch sides when it suits their agenda, which is something I honestly appreciate about it.

Only after he betrayed them. I mean in the novels, a lot of them are still loyal to him. There is no one single person central to SS like the Vandenreich are.

@Saiga: Presumably? I mean, we're meant to think they're still rotten and corrupt from what I recall.

OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#85509: Nov 27th 2018 at 8:32:33 PM

Yeah the new 46 is just as bad and only the sidestory about a young girl whose a member seeks change. The one with Zombie Kira vs the Viability.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#85510: Nov 27th 2018 at 10:28:50 PM

From the manga, what indicates they're just as bad? I don't remember any appearances beyond the two I mentioned

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#85511: Nov 27th 2018 at 10:30:07 PM

The bottom line is that Blondzen was full of crap and I'm glad he's dead

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#85512: Nov 27th 2018 at 10:33:53 PM

Everything Aizen and his cohorts did while pretending to be Central 46 is what they would have done anyways. That's why people don't bat an eye at what's happening to Rukia during said Arc.

And while Aizen is a prick they are petty enough to extend his sentence just because he badmouths them during his judgement.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Nov 27th 2018 at 10:34:19 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#85513: Nov 27th 2018 at 10:37:40 PM

It’s pretty scary how absolute their authority is.

Literally no one questions them. You are supposed to blindly follow orders, that’s it.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#85514: Nov 27th 2018 at 11:44:26 PM

[up][up] That's the old Central 46, I know those guys are pricks.

And if the new ones had any fault in that scene it's that they didn't start with the 20k year sentence.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#85515: Nov 27th 2018 at 11:51:05 PM

Well, they are archers Well known for being Actually Satan
Wait, what?

Hell no one defended Rukia. They just had her committed guilty & then rushed to fucking execute the woman.
In fairness, Ukitake and Kyoraku did try to help her.

OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#85516: Nov 28th 2018 at 12:14:47 AM

The New 46 are the same as the old in mentality. That's why the little girl wants to change the system after Shaz Domio attacks them to search for the Hogyoku during the war.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Nov 28th 2018 at 12:15:08 PM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#85517: Nov 28th 2018 at 12:31:12 AM

Again, I was asking about the manga.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#85518: Nov 28th 2018 at 5:20:24 AM

[up][up][up] Fate abridged joke. Rin calls Archer Actually Satan because he won’t identify himself and well just look at him. Not that she was so far off

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#85519: Nov 28th 2018 at 6:40:36 AM

There are good people in the Gotei 13, though. Lots of them. Some of them have their dark sides, but that's still the case.

There are no people in the Vandenreich whatsoever that can possibly be termed 'good' by any stretch. Only varying shades of evil bastard. If Yhwach declared someone guilty, would any member of the Stern Ritter risk themselves to save them even if they felt the hint it was wrong? I'd much rather a corrupt bureaucratic government than a pseudo-religious cult centered around a fascist megalomaniac

bandersnitch Since: Aug, 2016
#85520: Nov 28th 2018 at 10:46:44 AM

And how again do characters like Robert, Gerard, Meninas or Pernida count as evil? Your only argument so far is because they follow Yhwach. Yet apparently the Shinigami don't have to be automatically evil, just because they follow Yamamoto, who has invaded and tried to wipe out the Quincy twice. And intendes to invade the Quincy a third time in the final arc.

But going by your logic only the Quincy can be evil for doing the same thing. You are essentially stating that the Quincy are Always Chaotic Evil just because they are following Yhwach. Soul Society is not necessarily better. The world Yhwach tried to create was described as the perfect, biblical heaven. There is merit in the world he wanted to created and it essentially boils down to ideals.

Liltotto risked her own life to save Giselle from the Auswahlen. Turning Bambietta into a zombie is what prevented Bambietta to be punished by Yhwach, which going by Yhwach's rules would have been punishable by death. Haschwalth and Mask de Masculine tried to stop Bazz-B from acting rashly and thus being executed by Yhwach for disobedience.

Comun Since: Jun, 2012
#85521: Nov 28th 2018 at 11:00:14 AM

Their main point was that the Shinigami support Soul Society much more critically than the Quincy support Yhwach. Which I would argue is something the Shinigami are much more able to do, since they don't run into the problem of Yhwach being their literal life source.

Edited by Comun on Nov 28th 2018 at 3:00:51 PM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#85522: Nov 28th 2018 at 11:36:50 AM

And how again do characters like Robert, Gerard, Meninas or Pernida count as evil? Your only argument so far is because they follow Yhwach. Yet apparently the Shinigami don't have to be automatically evil, just because they follow Yamamoto, who has invaded and tried to wipe out the Quincy twice. And intendes to invade the Quincy a third time in the final arc.

Was that before or after the Quincy invaded their land and slaughtered their men? I mean, Yhwach is an attempted world conqueror who isn't sitting back doing nothing. The Quincy have nearly ruined the balance of the world while Yhwach is the very cornerstone of their government and society. The entire government is lined up behind him. There is no way to follow the unholy fusion of Jesus and Hitler without compromising your morality somewhat, and for all the good you can say about Gerard, if Yhwach told him "go kill that baby", his only response would be "how hard do you want me to hit it?" Soifon might do that, but Shunsui and Ukitake wouldn't, and it'd have to be a really, really powerful baby for Kenpachi to heed that order.

And again, you also overlook how no Quincy seems to have a problem with people like Pepe and Giselle in the ranks, and you seemingly refuse to acknowledge how horrifically abusive and monstrous Giselle truly is by handwaving her abuse of Bambi with "it's complicated"

So, the answer to "why are they evil" is "because they're serving a genocidal, fascist, ethnocentrist monster and assisting him in ruining the world" and all the sympathetic qualities in the world won't change that.

But going by your logic only the Quincy can be evil for doing the same thing. You are essentially stating that the Quincy are Always Chaotic Evil just because they are following Yhwach. Soul Society is not necessarily better. The world Yhwach tried to create was described as the perfect, biblical heaven. There is merit in the world he wanted to created and it essentially boils down to ideals.

Yeah, heaven for a selfish tyrant who never wants to die, that is not all it's cracked up to be for everyone else. Yhwach is a creature of selfishness and sadism, who is shown to glorify in the pain of others, treats the lives of his followers like candy to throw out on halloween and has done nearly as much damage to the Quincy as the Soul Reapers have.

Like, a big hint to someone being the unequivocal bad guy? They're so obsessed with blood purity they launch an attack to suck the life from their own people. Did you miss Yhwach screaming how he 'no longer needed' the Stern Ritter on the third Auswahlen he used in series?

Liltotto risked her own life to save Giselle from the Auswahlen. Turning Bambietta into a zombie is what prevented Bambietta to be punished by Yhwach, which going by Yhwach's rules would have been punishable by death. Haschwalth and Mask de Masculine tried to stop Bazz-B from acting rashly and thus being executed by Yhwach for disobedience.

Saving Giselle is not a good thing. Nor is eating people alive. And seriously, can you stop listing 'saving Bambi' as some sort of act of incredible benevolence when Giselle zombified her against her will and treats her as an abused slave she forcibly addicted to her? There is no goodwill there.

Edited by Lightysnake on Nov 28th 2018 at 11:38:48 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#85523: Nov 28th 2018 at 12:32:00 PM

[up][up] When you remember that detail it makes sense why the Stern Ritter are so loyal.

Bach isn't their God because he's the strongest, he's their God because he literally created them.

Without Bach the Quincy's would have never existed.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#85524: Nov 28th 2018 at 12:40:59 PM

And Liltotto is one of the few who isn't fanatically loyal.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
bandersnitch Since: Aug, 2016
#85525: Nov 28th 2018 at 1:11:24 PM

[up][up][up]

They have ruined a balance that is artificial and was set up by the Shinigami. We know that the world can exist without the balance, which is why the Quincy want to get rid of it.

In case you have forgotten, Shunsui and Ukitake have both committed genocide in the past. You really think the Quincy poplations they had slaughtered didn't involve children?

People have problems with Pepe. Liltotto, Askin and Meninas have voiced their disgust over him. Haschwalth and Bazz-B were likewise wary of him.

The Shinigami are not better in that regard. They are serving a corrupt, genocidal government that is responsible for a million years of propaganda, suffering and death, who have destroyed a perfect world in favor of the current Soul Society. For all his faults, Yhwach genuinely wanted to bring the lost perfect world back to humanity. Yhwach's character and the means he uses does not change that is end-goal is a good one.

So, because Giselle is evil, does diminish that Liltotto risked her life to save her friend? You demanded proof that there are Quincy who would risk their lives for others. I showed you proof and you simply ignore it. And whether you like it or not, Bambietta was zombified because the female Sternritter didn't want to be without her.


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