Especially the Flying Spaghetti Monster!
I can't really think of a single male character that's presented as subservient, though. Not all of them try to impose their authority, but their personalities imply disaffiliation or distance from the matter at hand.
'Cept for Pink Kimono Handsome Lech/Chivalrous Pervert (whose name escapes me, which is a shame since he's a hugely lovable guy), since he is essentially his Meganekko (maybe tsundere?) underling's bitch in a fun little inversion of the media norm.
Swordsman Troper — Reclaiming The Blade — WatchHow about Kira? (Not THAT one).
'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?Yeah, although Kira is still more Badass than the other guys I mentioned.
Currently taking a break from the site. See my user page for more information.Only because of his sword, but he's actually pretty weak. Oh, and there's Momo the Medical Boy!
'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?You give me this:
"Uhh... she only really gets bitchy after being rejected twice. Before that, she's just a little high strung and, after being rejected once, a lot desperate.
If anything, she doesn't mirror Miho, but Nakai. And even then, she hasn't done anything as bad as Nakai yet. I think the general quickness to interperet her character as a bitch tends to be rooted more in sexism of the readers and bias against female characters in general (see Fan Dumb reaction to Sakura) than any actual sexism on the author's part."
I give you this:
"Nakai, who's arguably given the same treatment as Iwase in the sense that they're portrayed as extremely negative gender-based stereotypes, spent most of his early days as a woobie, had interesting internal conflict and motivations (wanting to get published vs wanting to stay as an assistant where its safe), and even had a crowning episode of awesome involved drawing in the cold, and the latest chapter fleshes out his background even more (as well as hinting at a possible comeback)... in short, he is portrayed as MORE than a stereotype, with deeply human flaws and deeply human virtues, whereas Iwase isn't treated with the same level of complexity or sympathy at all."
You yourself admit that she starts getting bitchy after being rejected, and then go on to say that quickness to interpret her character as bitchy usually reflects sexism in the reader. Is it just me, or did you just call yourself sexist?
Again, I have nothing against characters being high strung or arrogant or competitive; but when a character is a highly negative caricature of all those things with none of her personal characteristics being portrayed in a positive way - I think it's pretty obvious that the authors meant for her to be unlikeable to the readers.
Also:
"I'd be surprised to hear anyone say she was dumb, though. Her grades were good, her college was good, her writing was good. She's obviously not stupid. Oh, she holds on to the Idiot Ball pretty hard, but she's written in a way where it comes off as fairly realistic portrayal of being emotional after a series of rejections."
Takagi explicitly calls her stupid in the very second chapter.
"I can't say to what degree it's a deliberate contrast and how much thought the authors gave it, but I'll note that Takagi and Mashiro are engaged in a bunch of friendly rivalries. They like and respect their rivals, and have no reservations about showing it. Iwase doesn't seem to like her competitors. She seems to feel that she's obligated to respect anyone who outperforms her, but her feelings aren't in it."
I don't think it needs to be deliberate for it to be sexist. I don't think in North America slave owners were deliberately being racist. I'm just saying that your prejudices can and, in fact, do manifest unconsciously.
I think it's precisely the opposite - it's because she likes her competitors in a romantic way that she wants to outdo them to gain their respect. And this is portrayed as a negative thing; in contrast to all those shonen manga with their protagonists wanting to outdo their friends and crap. Because male competition is hot-blooded and heartwarming, while if a female is competitive, that automatically makes her an overbearing bitch. Right?
Eh, I didn't read that large amount of text, but since you answered with WROOOOONG I can't figure out what it said.(aka, thats kinda unhelpful answer)
But seriously saying, I wonder... Am I only one who doesn't see sexist subtext in most of things? I mean, surely I would like more awesome female characters.... But I don't judge what happens to chars because of their gender, but their attributes, personality and similar stuff...(though, if sexism is blatant, then even I notice it...)
And don't argue how writers could just create female characters with bad ass personality, I already said in a way that I don't see lack of them as sexist.(Heck, its kinda like The Smurfette Principle if every series gotta have at least one / just as many bad ass chars in both genders.)
edited 22nd Jun '10 10:45:01 PM by SpookyMask
The whole problem with sexism and other prejudices is that they're invisible. Calling attention to it is the only way to deal with it, because otherwise it'll go on without anyone noticing. These things are subtle. This isn't to say you can't go too far by pointing out things that don't exist, but not noticing things that do exist is evidence of their power.
"Nakai, who's arguably given the same treatment as Iwase in the sense that they're portrayed as extremely negative gender-based stereotypes, spent most of his early days as a woobie, had interesting internal conflict and motivations (wanting to get published vs wanting to stay as an assistant where its safe), and even had a crowning episode of awesome involved drawing in the cold, and the latest chapter fleshes out his background even more (as well as hinting at a possible comeback)... in short, he is portrayed as MORE than a stereotype, with deeply human flaws and deeply human virtues, whereas Iwase isn't treated with the same level of complexity or sympathy at all."
Iwase isn't a woobie. Nakai is a pathetic older loser. Iwase is a brilliant writer and student.
She's competent, and therefore not an easy one to pile sympathy on, plus most of her successes happen offscreen(like everyone else's). Remember even what Nakai did was basically stalker behavior, and is only sympathetic because they couldn't keep the manga running. Nakai is a big, flabby failure. Iwase can write better than the protagonists. She's competition
"You yourself admit that she starts getting bitchy after being rejected, and then go on to say that quickness to interpret her character as bitchy usually reflects sexism in the reader. Is it just me, or did you just call yourself sexist? "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error
Just because some one acts badly on one or a few occasions is not necessarily good evidence that they are a bad person.
"I think it's precisely the opposite - it's because she likes her competitors in a romantic way that she wants to outdo them to gain their respect. And this is portrayed as a negative thing; in contrast to all those shonen manga with their protagonists wanting to outdo their friends and crap. Because male competition is hot-blooded and heartwarming, while if a female is competitive, that automatically makes her an overbearing bitch. Right?"
I'm going to go ahead and say I did know a girl like this, and it was extremely stupid and annoying. I actually haven't had any male friends who were competitive with me in this way, though. I'm tempted to say that I'd find most forms of real life rivalry equally or more annoying.
But she's not actually annoying to the protagonists, except when she demands to be Takagi girlfriend, which was on the extreme end of shonen silliness. Her "woman scorned" thing was because she had just been rejected... just like Nakai. It had nothing to do with her rivalry. She was just as successful as she had been before.
edited 23rd Jun '10 1:42:38 AM by Roman
| DA Page | Sketchbook |"She's competent, and therefore not an easy one to pile sympathy on, plus most of her successes happen offscreen(like everyone else's)."
Many of the male characters in the story are competent AND likeable. See Niizuma, Hattori, Fukuda etc. Whereas she is competent, but she's portrayed as unlikeable. Sometimes, precisely BECAUSE she is female and competent. See Chapter 2.
"Remember even what Nakai did was basically stalker behavior, and is only sympathetic because they couldn't keep the manga running. Nakai is a big, flabby failure. Iwase can write better than the protagonists. She's competition"
So you acknowledge that Nakai was sympathetic and that Nakai was a Woobie. Notice how Takagi and Mashiro still harbor hopes of him coming back to the manga world again and talk about him like he's a decent person despite his being a big, flabby failure and the way he treated Aoki.
"Just because some one acts badly on one or a few occasions is not necessarily good evidence that they are a bad person."
First of all, you acknowledge that she acted badly on at least one or a few occasions. Secondly, throughout the manga she is consistently described as not a very likeable person. Let me quote:
Takagi, Chapter 2:
"She's good looking, but you just can't like her, right? She's got the best grades of all the girls in the class and the fact that she's proud of it makes her repulsive. I think she's stupid."
Chapter 61:
Iwase: I've decided maybe I should acknowledge that manga has its place... Aoki: (Acknowledge that it has its place? How condescending.) Aoki: So you think novels are better than manga? Iwase: Of course. Clearly novels are more cultured than manga. Aoki: (Cultured... Did she approach me because she still likes Takagi-san and thinks I might know him? How could she still like him with that attitude towards manga? No... maybe this is one form of love too...) Aoki: Do you want to see him? Iwase: I want him to see me now, but I have too much self-respect to seek him out on my own... Aoki: (She's so prideful... just like how I used to be...) ... Aoki: I might be able to arrange a coincidental meeting... Iwase: Really? Aoki: (Does she really think that will get his attention? Or does she just want to show him up? I don't know, but...)
And then the entire first half of Chapter 62, where she confronts Takagi. One little snippet:
Iwase: I was able to get published while still keeping my grades up. Takagi: ? Uh, so what? Are you saying I'm stupid for letting my grades drop because of manga? Aoki: I think Iwase-san wanted you to see what she's become.
She explicitly annoys him to the point where he bursts out angrily at her ("Both manga and novels are the end result of people working hard to convey something! I can't believe you're trying to rank them!"), calls her stupid again ("I think it's stupid to compare them" - and Aoki agrees with his sentiments, though she expresses it in milder terms). Aoki thinks Iwase's being childish, and at the end Takagi says "It's like she doesn't even like me, she just hates to lose", that her persistence in seeing him as a rival is "weird", etc.
The entire first half of Chapter 62 portrays Iwase as a really negative character, and others reactions to her personality are generally negative.
Chapter 72:
Takagi: This'll probably give Iwase a big head. It's only been six months since she decided to be a manga author and she's already serialized. Mashiro: Hattori-san and Eiji are just that good.
There are other occasions, but I'm not about to go through all of the manga again to find them.
Consistently, she portrayed as and described by other characters as arrogant, unreasonable, and just generally an unlikeable person. She praised as a creator, and people think she's beautiful, but her personal characteristics are generally portrayed as negative, and other people think so too. Aoki is the only one who even tries to understand her, but other than that, no one seems to like her as an individual.
"I'm going to go ahead and say I did know a girl like this, and it was extremely stupid and annoying. I actually haven't had any male friends who were competitive with me in this way, though. I'm tempted to say that I'd find most forms of real life rivalry equally or more annoying.
But she's not actually annoying to the protagonists, except when she demands to be Takagi girlfriend, which was on the extreme end of shonen silliness. Her "woman scorned" thing was because she had just been rejected... just like Nakai. It had nothing to do with her rivalry. She was just as successful as she had been before."
So she's annoying to the protagonists when she demands to be Takagi's girlfriend, you acknowledge that.
She's successful. She's extremely successful. That's precisely it. She is the only successful woman in the manga - no, more accurately, she is the only female character in the manga that actually surpasses the male protagonists (with the help of Hattori-san and Eiji, who are apparently "just that good").
Is it coincidence that the only female that is better than the protagonists is the most unlikeable female character in the entire series? I think not.
Is it coincidence that her competitiveness is expressed in the "bad" kind of rivalry, while the protagonists' competitiveness is expressed in the "good" kind of rivalry? I think not.
To sum up, the message is: If you're a girl, and you're competitive and successful, you're automatically going to be arrogant, condescending, and generally unlikeable.
edited 23rd Jun '10 3:40:27 AM by Anarchy
...Wait. It's streaming on Crunchyroll?
With the dub?
Fifty episodes?
...*sigh* Add another eighteen and a half hours to the list, then.
Hahahahaha, you have fallen into my trap, Shay.
@Anarchy: >>To sum up, the message is: If you're a girl, and you're competitive and successful, you're automatically going to be arrogant, condescending, and generally unlikeable.
Err...NO. This is starting to veer off into insane troll logic, so I'll make it short.
>>She's successful. She's extremely successful. That's precisely it. She is the only successful woman in the manga - no, more accurately, she is the only female character in the manga that actually surpasses the male protagonists
>>only female character
>>only female
Ya think? If she is the only female character who is "competitive and successful", than how the hell did you draw the "you're automatically going to be " conclusion out of it? Is there another female character who is competitive, successful, and automatically arrogant, condescending, and generally unlikeable? No! Why?
>>only female character
>>only female
At this point, you are either a troll, or just plain stupid. Either way, you can stop doing that now.
edited 23rd Jun '10 8:39:41 AM by Megamet
"That's not how it works here. First, we have to argue incessantly over semantics. Then, one of us has to hurt one or all of us."Talk about missing the point...
There are a SHITLOAD of medieval plays where there is only one jewish character: Who just so happens to be a greedy usurer.
The fact that there are so few women (and that women are so restricted in their roles) is a part of the problem.
"No, the Singularity will not happen. Computation is hard." -Happy EntI think I can safely say that was the most authentic case of Completely Missing The Point I've ever seen. Either that, or you're a really good troll.
To clarify, Iwase is the only woman in the manga so far that is portrayed as being more successful than Takagi and Mashiro. (Aoki comes close, but ultimately her mangas have all been less successful than theirs.) Out of all the female characters, Iwase is portrayed in the most negative light. Unlikeable, arrogant, and unreasonable. Most other characters do not like her. The authors are conveying the message - or at least the assumption - that women who are successful and smart (in traditionally masculine domains) will necessarily be unlikeable. Her competitiveness is portrayed in a negative manner compared to the male characters' competitiveness, which is portrayed in a positive manner.
EDIT: And yes, the fact that there are so few female characters is part of the problem. I wouldn't know, though, how accurate a reflection that is of the actual gender distribution in shonen manga circles.
Judging from the manga I read, there are as many female mangakas as there are male mangakas doing shonen.
edited 23rd Jun '10 9:08:34 AM by Anarchy
Takagi and Mashiro aren't portrayed as successful at all. Their works have flopped more than any other character's in the series combined. Everyone's always talking about their "potential" to make something good, rather than them actually making such a thing. I don't think it'd be a stretch to call Aoki just as successful as they are. And of course she's in the same good college as Iwase. Basically Aoki is the "nice girl" foil to Iwase, in that she's exactly the same in terms of success and booksmarts, but with a better attitude.
edited 23rd Jun '10 9:08:52 AM by Clarste
Megamet's point was that since Iwase is the only character in her situation, she should be judged as a single character, not taken to be representative of the series as a whole.
And I would say that Aoki is a decent point against your position. Sure, she's gone Out of Focus now, but she was directly competing with Takagi and Mashiro in a way none of others were for quite a while there.
^ Except that it doesen't matter. If the only jewish character in your story is a hook-nosed greedy banker you're dabbling in pretty heavy anti-semitism.
And Iwase *is* a stereotype. The "women in male-dominaed careers are bitches" is pretty common.
"No, the Singularity will not happen. Computation is hard." -Happy Ent@Clarste: Well, Hattori's always going on about how they're going to become the pillars of Jump and Niizuma, a genius mangaka himself, acknowledges them as his rival. Not Aoki. Not anyone else. Ashirogi-sensei is the only one he acknowledges as having a chance of beating him.
"And Iwase *is* a stereotype. The "women in male-dominaed careers are bitches" is pretty common."
My point exactly.
edited 23rd Jun '10 9:14:14 AM by Anarchy
No, but my original point was that Iwase, being the author of Natural, is the ONLY female character than is more successful than Takagi and Mashiro. The counterargument to that was that Aoki is just as successful as Takagi and Mashiro. I was arguing that the fact that the most successful author in Jump, Niizuma, acknowledges them and only them as his rival, and the fact that Hattori goes to such lengths to help them, saying that they will be the future pillars of Jump on the same level as Niizuma, implies that Takagi and Mashiro are better mangakas than Aoki.
Aoki is successful, yes, but she's not more successful than the boys. That's important.
edited 23rd Jun '10 9:42:23 AM by Anarchy
Well, in that sense, Iwase's not that successful either since its been emphasized repeatedly that her scripts for +Natural are merely "good" while Niizuma turns them into something "awesome" with his intuitive sense for manga. If we're measuring talent instead of actual published success, then only Niizuma and Ashirogi are in the running at all, which isn't an unusual set-up for a shounen rivalry.
Which is perhaps sexist in a different way.

Well we do accept the subservience of some guys as normal too. There are dominant personalities and meek personalities. Orihime isn't just meek to boys, she's meek to everyone, even the Flying Spaghetti Monster!
'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?