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shiro_okami Since: Apr, 2010
#126: Jun 22nd 2010 at 3:28:13 PM

@Shay: I think what you're looking for is Eureka 7.

edited 22nd Jun '10 3:28:31 PM by shiro_okami

Arilou Taller than Zim from Quasispace Since: Jan, 2001
Taller than Zim
#127: Jun 22nd 2010 at 3:29:57 PM

To be fair to One Piece, EVERYONE is more or less Gonk there...

As someone mentioned, Revolutionary Girl Utena (the tv series, not the movie) is good. (the fact that it's actually explicitly a deconstruction of gender and gender-roles helps, naturally, and here I'm actually using the term properly)

"No, the Singularity will not happen. Computation is hard." -Happy Ent
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#128: Jun 22nd 2010 at 3:36:49 PM

Haruko does not use her sexuality as a weapon because she's a female character, she does so because she's a callous person who is obsessed with her cosmic jerk of a boyfriend and may or may not be the physical personification of everything a twelve year old boy fears about sex.

My take on it was Haruko was supposed to be physically mature but emotionally immature, in contrast with the emotionally mature but physically immature Naota (at least that's how they like to present themselves, anyway; with FLCL Alternate Character Interpretation rules the day).

RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#129: Jun 22nd 2010 at 3:46:20 PM

Bond is a sick bastard, a complete psycho, and should be given as filler in the sharks' lunch. Mako sharks.

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
Nyktos (srahc 84) eltit Since: Jan, 2001
(srahc 84) eltit
#130: Jun 22nd 2010 at 3:49:17 PM

Raw, have you seen Gunbuster or not?

I guess it is.
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#131: Jun 22nd 2010 at 4:03:41 PM

Bond is a sick bastard, a complete psycho, and should be given as filler in the sharks' lunch. Mako sharks.

And Haruko doesn't care one bit whether her plans will destroy an entire city or leave everyone on Earth brain dead drones. She may be a hero in the story, but strictly of the anti variety.

Nyktos (srahc 84) eltit Since: Jan, 2001
(srahc 84) eltit
#132: Jun 22nd 2010 at 4:51:50 PM

Honestly, I thought of Haruko as a villain.

I guess it is.
RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#133: Jun 22nd 2010 at 5:00:56 PM

Haruko was never a hero in any sense of the word. She was a villain from the start. One of the things that make Furi Kuri so ultimately void and shallow and unsatisfying is that it has a severe case of Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy. I couldn't root for anyone. Not even for Naota, who was just a kid being balloted and manipulated around. In fact, if I had the chance, I may like to sue Haruko for sexual harrassment and statuotry rape. It was a very fun ride, and a great Coming of Age story, but apart from that it was just animators wanking to their genius and us eating their cum when it suddenly came out with the happy-but-slightly-confused-and-shocked face that seems almost mandatory in such circumstances.

And, no, I never saw Gunbuster. Except form one sequence from teh final chapter, but the repeated screams of Sempai here and Onee-sama there were very off-putting, so I didn't dig further. I hate Sempai-worship, and I hate it even more if it's a commoner, Tomboy type worshipping a Yamato Nadeshiko Lady of War. The way rich people are idealized in Japan, especially in Shoujou, pisses me off immensely.

edited 22nd Jun '10 5:04:28 PM by RawPower

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
Nyktos (srahc 84) eltit Since: Jan, 2001
(srahc 84) eltit
#134: Jun 22nd 2010 at 5:06:56 PM

How exactly is Noriko's "worship" of Kazumi any different from Simon's relationship with Kamina early in Gurren Lagann?

Also, judging a series based on a scene taken out of context from the final episode is stupid as hell.

edited 22nd Jun '10 5:09:06 PM by Nyktos

I guess it is.
KillerRabbit Just wondering from In the Ning Nang Nong Since: Jan, 2001
Just wondering
#135: Jun 22nd 2010 at 5:28:23 PM

Haruko was never a hero in any sense of the word. She was a villain from the start. One of the things that make Furi Kuri so ultimately void and shallow and unsatisfying is that it has a severe case of Darkness Induced Audience Apathy.

At the risk of a derail, I'll agree on the apathy inducing, but under no criteria can FLCL be called shallow. Not everyone gets to harness the power of Hotblood!.

They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams for an instant, then it's night once more
RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#136: Jun 22nd 2010 at 6:06:27 PM

^^ Yes, I know. Same deal with Gurren Lagann. I looked at the final episode, found it utterly stupid and unimpressive, and only went to watch it out of massive boredom. Then... AWESOME HAPPENED!

And their relationship is different in that Kamina is even lower on the social totem pole of Jiiha than Simon. Also, Kamina is the hot-blooded, inspiring one who does all he can to cheer up cowardly Simon, while it appeared to me that the Kouhai in GB was being inordinately admirative of her sempai, to her apparent weariness. 'Admiration is the feeling furthest from understanding'. Being fanboyed can be really irritating. Except that, in Kamina's case, he was aiming for exactly that, and his behaviour was largely a façade for the sake of Simon, and because Simon's belief in him gave Kamina confidence, and helps him in his general thrift to compensate for the fact that he chickened out from followin his father to the surface. Also, Kamina-Simon mirror Yakuza brotherhood, while GB seems to mirror a servant-noblewoman relationship.

But I guess I should give it a try.

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
Nyktos (srahc 84) eltit Since: Jan, 2001
(srahc 84) eltit
#137: Jun 22nd 2010 at 6:21:53 PM

The thing is that the first episode of Gunbuster is basically a shoujo parody with mechas. It turns into a cross between TTGL and Gundam pretty quickly afterwards, but some of the shoujo archetypes still stick around (primarily Kazumi).

Anyway, what you say is true about Noriko and Kazumi's relationship in the first couple episodes, but by the end, the only reason she still calls her ONEE-SAMA~ is for old times' sake.

edited 22nd Jun '10 6:22:09 PM by Nyktos

I guess it is.
RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#138: Jun 22nd 2010 at 6:24:28 PM

Hm, thank you for pointing out the reefs and how to circumnavigate them.

BTW, do you know what I should do to be such a coherent defender of Gurren Lagann? When it makes a first bad impression, I can do little more than stare in disbelief, and have a lot of trouble commenting on it without raising my voice and getting voerly enthusiastic and tripping over myself... This has never happened to me before.

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
MadassAlex I am vexed! from the Middle Ages. Since: Jan, 2001
I am vexed!
#139: Jun 22nd 2010 at 6:25:18 PM

Hypothetical situation:

Let's say we have a male writer. Let's call him Writer X. Writer X is heavily attracted to empowered women who CARVE THEIR OWN PATH and whose blood EXCEEDS THE TEMPERATURE OF A LEGION OF STARS.

So Writer X creates Character Y as a direct result of his fantasy woman. Character Z is already in play, being something of an author self-insert, and the two characters are brought together in a relationship that bears small relevance to the plot.

It could be argued that the Character Y exists solely as an Author Appeal element so Writer X can indulge in his own romantic and sexual fantasies. Despite the fact that Character Y is strong, empowered and can solve her own problems, is this portrayal sexist?

I would argue, "yes, indeed it is". Depicting women as weak and dumb is surely a facet of sexism, but solving just that doesn't change a thing when a female character's purpose is still to be provisional for a male. Better a female character that begins as a nonce and has personal character development than a female character that's awesome and still has to play second fiddle.

A large element of what makes Black Lagoon relatively less sexist than a lot of other media is its meta recognition of sexist elements in play in general and specifically averting them. It doesn't really matter that the female characters are often the way they are through trauma; what matters is that they don't cow to masculine authority as a general thing. If you still wanted to argue the trauma angle, keep in mind that a major theme of Black Lagoon is just that. Rock's own experience with the social trauma of a limiting, character-destroying corporate life ends up causing character development when he flips out and rejects it. Sometimes, personal traumas are an incredible source of real-life personal development, wisdom and maturation, which is why it's alright that all the female characters are traumatised; they refused to back down from it and instead learned and wielded those experiences.

Swordsman TroperReclaiming The BladeWatch
RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#140: Jun 22nd 2010 at 6:30:23 PM

Balalaika's arc was the saddest from my POV. Being born in a shithole is one thing, but going from a rich, sheltered life into editing porn videos is very depressing, especially if you were always a hero (she demonstrates mercy and discenrment in her battles), an exemplary soldier and a patriot. But I wouldn't expect a Russian woman to bow down to male authority anyways: the USSR had a very good track record with feminism.

^ You know, the situation you described might turn out to be exactly what's happening with the book I'm writing with De Marquis. Except the setting is realistic with Grey And Grey morality, adn she's just insane, but apart from that... Although it wasn't supposed to be romantic, more of a The Straight Will And Grace or a Kyon x Haruhi situation where he plays the Straight Man (pun unintended, I might actually make him bi), except she is the mercenary working for him. Or maybe I'll make the author avatar a girl, but that'd be hard: the story is about a muslim young adult formed to Western Culture and the Methods of Rationality who wants to rediscover and reclaim his cultural heritage, and I have no idea how that would play out in a girl's mind. I know my mind very well, I'm very introspective, but I wouldn't know how to write a girl who is just like me, except she's a girl. Otaku Surrogate is not an option.

edited 22nd Jun '10 6:36:21 PM by RawPower

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
MadassAlex I am vexed! from the Middle Ages. Since: Jan, 2001
I am vexed!
#141: Jun 22nd 2010 at 6:35:14 PM

Which makes that whole mail-order wife concept mind-crushingly ironic. So much for social equality. ._.

Swordsman TroperReclaiming The BladeWatch
RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#142: Jun 22nd 2010 at 6:37:09 PM

^ Those aren't Russian, but from other Eastern countries, amirite?

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
MadassAlex I am vexed! from the Middle Ages. Since: Jan, 2001
I am vexed!
#143: Jun 22nd 2010 at 6:42:08 PM

'Tis the Russian businessmen playing the trick.

Swordsman TroperReclaiming The BladeWatch
Sporkaganza I'm glasses. Since: May, 2009
I'm glasses.
#144: Jun 22nd 2010 at 6:55:27 PM

Try Russia Sushi Bride! Very good. And cheap!

Always, somewhere, someone is fighting for you. As long as you remember them, you are not alone.
RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#145: Jun 22nd 2010 at 6:56:39 PM

This makes me sad. When I'm sad, Shindlers List soundtrack plays in my mind...

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
silver2195 Since: Jan, 2001
#146: Jun 22nd 2010 at 7:00:29 PM

Back on topic: Is Bleach sexist? I've only watched up to around the Shota and Cloning Arrancar filler, but so far the accusations against it seem pretty unfair.

Currently taking a break from the site. See my user page for more information.
ShayGuy Since: Jan, 2001
#147: Jun 22nd 2010 at 7:03:01 PM

A show which meets your criteria may be Haibane Renmei. You could gender swap any or all of the cast and I'm not sure it would change very much at all. Of course, in terms of adult/child divide it arguably presents that as fairly irrelvant as well. It is not physical growth that matters.

Well, it never is. Though I never really managed to accept the setting of HR — funny, considering I never really had that problem with Lost. Maybe it's just the fact that the nagging questions were about a society's practices.

But that's not what I'm gettin at. I want a world in which women have a whole cultural referential, a whole pool of tropes, from which to draw their badass feminity. I want them to give it their all, to emit that HEAT! That LOVE! I want the world to burn in flames when their Love Interest is hurt in the slightest. I want to see women with big scars and lots of diginity. I want to see hot-blooded women in a way that is not demeaning, that is not a sign of depravity, immorality, or madness like in Black Lagoon. Do you get my drift? I want women to scream of JUSTICE and FRIENDSHIP, and VOLCANOES to ERUPT at their words!

I think I've heard of something that's reputed to be a little like that...hmm, I know I've heard the name somewhere, it was a shojo sentai series from the '90s...Bishojo Senshi something-or-other?

Haruko does not use her sexuality as a weapon because she's a female character, she does so because she's a callous person who is obsessed with her cosmic jerk of a boyfriend and may or may not be the physical personification of everything a twelve year old boy fears about sex.

It's also useful to note that none of her targets are all that sexually mature. Naota's a kid, Kamon has the maturity of a late adolescent, and Amarao...well, see episode 5. It'd be interesting to see her interact with Tasuku, unless Naota's over-idealizing him.

@Shay: I think what you're looking for is Eureka 7.

Oh, I know that one has a great reputation, and it's one of the few to have been recommended to me by an IRL friend, but there is no way you're going to make me let my list grow any lo—

...Wait. It's streaming on Crunchyroll?

With the dub?

Fifty episodes?

...*sigh* Add another eighteen and a half hours to the list, then.

My take on it was Haruko was supposed to be physically mature but emotionally immature, in contrast with the emotionally mature but physically immature Naota (at least that's how they like to present themselves, anyway; with FLCL Alternate Character Interpretation rules the day).

Uh, I think that is Alternate Character Interpretation — that is, them actually being how they present themselves. Haruko's a schemer and deceiver who is also flat-out crazy, whereas Naota is less actually mature and more desperately obsessed with the ideal of maturity.

And yeah, she is a villain, or at least a selfish antagonist, but is only really explicit about her goals near the end, and remains a Friendly Enemy after she loses.

The way rich people are idealized in Japan, especially in Shoujou, pisses me off immensely.

I don't think there was ever an implication of Kazumi being rich, only of her being The Ace. And I'm not sure how the large amount of respect Noriko has for her is a bad thing. (To elaborate on what Nyktos said, in episode 5, Noriko uses yobisute while trying to bring Kazumi out of a Heroic BSoD.)

RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#148: Jun 22nd 2010 at 7:07:15 PM

Don't use a spoiler for a series I plan to watch as a point in argumentation! What am I supposed to do now, Huey?

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
MadassAlex I am vexed! from the Middle Ages. Since: Jan, 2001
I am vexed!
#149: Jun 22nd 2010 at 7:08:54 PM

Orihime seems a lot that way. She's very stereotypical in a lot of ways. Large breasts, submissive personality, feels worthless on many accounts and doesn't have a hugely significant impact on many battles.

Possible subversion, though. Ichigo values her as a person and takes her seriously, but clearly shows a lot more respect for Rukia. Rukia, while being nearly flat, short, dark-haired, with relatively beady eyed and an initially cold personality, carries much more authority.

Bleach seems to play with it a lot, though. I think what saves it from sexism, ultimately, it that it presents us with a variety of different kinds of women and approaches to feminine traits and validates all of those as perfectly alright.

Another possible subversion in that leads us to accept the subservience of certain female characters as normal.

Swordsman TroperReclaiming The BladeWatch
Tumbril Since: Feb, 2010
#150: Jun 22nd 2010 at 7:11:47 PM

^^^^^^ Russian sushi brides are made of humans. Wait, what?

I always took the chapter 2 Bakuman thing more as commentary on how Japanese society is, but I agree with others on how the portrayal of Iwase is somewhat offensive.

^^^^ If Bleach is sexist, I don't think it's a really serious offender. The worst things I can think of are the two rescue arcs and Hinamori being the most brainwashed. I guess you might also say that a lot of the girls aren't good at winning anything, but then there are quite a few guys in the same situation. Like Chad, the poor guy... I tend to forget a lot of specifics about stories, though, so there's probably something I missed...

edited 22nd Jun '10 7:12:08 PM by Tumbril

Tumblr here.

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