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Parable State of Mind from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
State of Mind
#7076: Aug 6th 2019 at 6:55:41 PM

If gritty, dark Magical Girl series are the topic at hand, then the one that comes to mind is Magical Girl Spec-Ops Asuka. A show that had a lot to say about using middle schoolers as magic child soldiers, but relegated most of that to brief flashbacks because blood and torture/bondage porn was more important.

"What a century this week has been." - Seung Min Kim
Rynnec Killing is my business Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
Killing is my business
#7077: Aug 6th 2019 at 7:47:45 PM

Spec Ops was never going to take itself 100% seriously anyway, and honestly that's fine. The fact that it focuses more on fun and Black Comedy is what makes it one of the better Dark Magical Girl series in my eyes.

"I'll show you fear, there is no hell, only darkness." My twitter
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#7078: Aug 6th 2019 at 10:28:43 PM

In keeping with dunking on otherwise great works for their failurs with women, what do you all make of Berserk?

I'm reminded of a post on r/berserk where a guy asked if his GF, who was a rape survivor, should read Berserk. Lots of people screaming NO. I only ever read the Black Swordsman Arc and watched the classic Berserk anime and when I did both I was far less...interested in this kind of topic so I remember very little. I assume rape is pretty common beyond the one big story moment everyone knows about. I don't think rape is an inherently bad thing to have in stories but when it's used for cheap shock value to side characters, women who exist for no other reason than to be raped, that is probably not good.

Also I do remember The Count's plotline and his wife having an orgy and then he loved his daughter too much and it made him give up his life. Probably not great when taken into account with everything else.

As I said earlier, I don't think anything is intrinsically problematic. It is how t hey are used and if they are abused. Lightysnake questioned the Black Widow stereotype with that one Nazi Quincy villain in Bleach but what about Slan in Berserk? Are sexy demon ladies a bad stereotype to be avoided, too?

Edited by Nikkolas on Aug 6th 2019 at 10:32:16 AM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#7079: Aug 6th 2019 at 10:39:07 PM

I've only read the first 14 volumes of Berserk, but there is a lot of casual rape and sexual violence from what I remember. Also, some with some major characters, which I haven't read myself, but have heard that one of them and repercussions from it are handled really well while the other... isn't.

Wispy Since: Feb, 2017
#7080: Aug 7th 2019 at 12:16:24 AM

Berserk definitely has a lot of casual sexual violence and uncomfortable scenes. I don't think a rape survivor should read it due to it being potentially trigger for them.

GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#7081: Aug 7th 2019 at 2:02:37 AM

There's a lot of rape in Berserk: actual, implied and threatened. Such as (hiding as a trigger barrier): The main character is raped as a child, there's the Eclipse moment that everyone knows about, another female character is almost raped by a demon-possessed horse, there's an apostle (human who has accepted demon powers and become a monster) who rapes all the time and almost rapes the main female character, IIRC there's an arc where there's a whole tribe of troll-like creatures who either do or threaten to rape some villager women, the female member of the Godhand tries to female on male rape the main character, a king fantasizing about raping his daughter and would have done so if he hadn't walked in on one of the main characters already there, that big goat bloke in the weirdo cult who basically would have raped a rape survivor whose mind is currently childlike...

That's all I can think of off the top of my head, but boy there's a lot more than I thought there would be.

Edited by GoldenKaos on Aug 7th 2019 at 12:48:27 PM

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
Mami Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
#7082: Aug 7th 2019 at 2:56:42 AM

Outstanding.

I absolutely cannot help but adore handsome 2D boys
Rynnec Killing is my business Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
Killing is my business
#7083: Aug 7th 2019 at 3:34:30 AM

Berserk's really goddamn lucky it's so good in most other areas otherwise. It still has a problem with its female rep aside from the rape though.

"I'll show you fear, there is no hell, only darkness." My twitter
devak They call me.... Prophet Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
They call me.... Prophet
#7084: Aug 7th 2019 at 3:45:38 AM

Why is there so much rape in it? It may seem like a dumb question... but it's usually something you want for shock value and to make a heavy point. If it becomes almost casual, then it's just gratuitous.

Cause it reminds me of Goblin Slayer, where we already get a dozen reasons to hate goblins but it *still* goes out of the way to make goblins hateable by raping women... as their only means of procreation. It's like, why?

Edited by devak on Aug 7th 2019 at 12:48:02 PM

Wispy Since: Feb, 2017
#7085: Aug 7th 2019 at 3:50:50 AM

Shock value pretty much, although in Guts specific case I think him getting raped was trying to show how damaging it could be to men to get raped too.

I am not sure though. Its not made very clear.

Edited by Wispy on Aug 7th 2019 at 3:51:05 AM

FergardStratoavis Bnnuy from Ye Olde Worlde (Less Newbie) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
Bnnuy
#7086: Aug 7th 2019 at 4:42:55 AM

It started pretty firmly as gritty shock value rape, but then Miura started doing things with it; chiefly by making Guts himself a rape survivor and then slowly overcoming the Hates Being Touched problem he ended up with as a result. The first half of Golden Age arc is fairly clean (although it has other problems), but then things get a bit skeevy and culminate with The Eclipse. Rapemonsters show up semi-frequently for quite some time after that, most infamously the Rape Horse, with the last of them making an entrance in the Troll Arc, I think. There's also female on male attempted rape from the same arc, with one of the baddies, the aforementioned Slan, trying to violate Guts (while currently using an avatar made of monster guts nonetheless), and there's absolutely nothing sexy about it. (spoilered because yeah, that might be wise)

However, the female representation and agency in Berserk is... quite strong, actually, if lacking in numbers. There are Schierke and Farnese, who are probably the most competent people in Guts's team. The latter had a rocky start by being a purely decorative female leader who almost was on the receiving end of said Rape Horse, but has been coming around. The former and the former's teacher are firmly on the side of well-developed female characters, even if the latter had little screentime for herself.

As far as secondary characters go, there's Luca and, more arguably, Princess Charlotte post-Golden Age. Either way, Miura has admitted that early Berserk, at least, was him still ambling about to find the right focus (which is why the very first panel is Guts having sex with a female Apostle, despite that being extremely OOC for him as we retroactively find out, and why he's such a huge butt himself). It's a bit hard to define what "current" Berserk is, but I think it's been fairly clean on sexual themes after the Troll Arc.

Edited by FergardStratoavis on Aug 7th 2019 at 1:44:22 PM

Can't be 5'2 if everyone thinks you're over six feet tall-
GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#7087: Aug 7th 2019 at 4:53:32 AM

I feel like there's a lot of being dark for the sake of being dark in Berserk, as well as to make the light parts shine brighter, but just to underline how grimdark Muira wrote this manga - Guts's birth (around chapter 9) is that he was found, with part of his umbilical cord still attached, in a pool of blood under the corpse of his mother, who was hanging from a tree with about a dozen other people. His early life was a Trauma Conga Line that included the aforementioned sexual assault His foster father sold Guts's body to another soldier for the night when Guts was around ten years old

I suppose the one redeeming feature I can say about Berserk's volume of rape is that it always invokes Rape Is a Special Kind of Evil in all its examples, it's always treated with the horror it deserves - which is more than I can say about certain isekai I could mention.

Edited by GoldenKaos on Aug 7th 2019 at 12:56:03 PM

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#7088: Aug 7th 2019 at 4:58:08 AM

That kind of gratuituous sexual violence is not at all uncommon in gritty seinen manga by the way, Berserk's hardly the only series guilty of it.

I do think it's worth noting that the sexual violence in the story has pretty much vanished entirely in the latest chapters so I think Miura realized he could tone it down without losing much.

GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#7089: Aug 7th 2019 at 5:14:52 AM

The last few arcs have been significantly Lighter and Softer in general, with Guts finally finding some True Companions to help him through his shit.

I remember reading a manga called Green Blood, which I dropped after the first arc because it became obvious it was a seinen manga that relied on shock value provided by ultraviolence, sex appeal, and a gratuitous combination of the two. I don't know if it lifted itself up from that pit after the characters left New York, but all I saw was seinen shock manga.

Edited by GoldenKaos on Aug 7th 2019 at 1:19:13 PM

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#7090: Aug 7th 2019 at 5:27:49 AM

[up][up][up] I have tried pointing out that upside in the past with shojo and people usually just brush it off. Just be safe, Fushigi Yuugi spoilers. Sure Miaka nearly gets raped a few times but it's always, always treated as supremely heinous. When it looks like Yui was gang raped in the awesome new fantasy world, it certainly put a much darker spin on what had been a pretty fun and light-hearted bit of escapism.

Rape is usually treated very, very seriously but some people just don't like it existing at all in fiction.

Lyendith I'm not insane, I'm not… not insane! from Bègles, France Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Buried in snow, waiting for spring
I'm not insane, I'm not… not insane!
#7091: Aug 7th 2019 at 5:30:42 AM

[up][up] Then try to read DEAD Tube if you wanna laugh (or vomit, it depends).

Flippé de participer à ce grand souper, je veux juste m'occuper de taper mon propre tempo.
GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#7092: Aug 7th 2019 at 5:35:25 AM

I did. Put that shit right back down tongue

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#7093: Aug 7th 2019 at 5:42:23 AM

Berserk has a lot of rape in it because Kentaro Miura is a weird dude with weird fetishes including rape. It has critical acclaim despite this because he's also a very capable writer who's very earnest about his work, and will put in the legwork to address the psychological consequences of his weird, gross fetish-bait in interesting and realistic ways (and will also provide plenty of content that is much more generally enjoyable so you can skim over the uncomfortable rapey bits).

What's precedent ever done for us?
Lyendith I'm not insane, I'm not… not insane! from Bègles, France Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Buried in snow, waiting for spring
I'm not insane, I'm not… not insane!
#7094: Aug 7th 2019 at 5:45:20 AM

[up][up] Yeah… it holds the dubious distinction of being the only manga I couldn't read past the first volume. And I consider myself pretty tolerant. >.>

[up] Miura has already publicly expressed regret at the overuse of rape in the early parts of Berserk.

Flippé de participer à ce grand souper, je veux juste m'occuper de taper mon propre tempo.
SpookyMask Since: Jan, 2011
#7095: Aug 7th 2019 at 6:38:49 AM

^^Do you actually know for sure he has that fetish?

I mean, I'm not sure you can jump to conclusion that all who include horrible things in their works approves them on some level.

GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#7096: Aug 7th 2019 at 6:55:52 AM

He could have been in a dark place and decided to take it out on his characters. Adding rape in your story doesn't necessarily mean that a rape fetish is present.


[up][up] Apparently the MC's 14 year old sister is sexually assaulted and killed later on, after being forced to kill her dad.

Edited by GoldenKaos on Aug 7th 2019 at 2:56:22 PM

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#7097: Aug 7th 2019 at 7:21:59 AM

From what I hear, Miura kind of considers the rape stuff an Old Shame....to his credit, he has been, significantly, walking it back. Berserk has been trending from low grimdark fantasy to more high fantasy for a bit now, and there has been way less gratuitous sexual violence.

It tended to get a bit too much when just about every fucking character had been raped, or subjected to attempted rape and I have been through too damn many "but historical accuracy" arguments to give that any excuse. What happened to Casca was the most egregious for me.

Mami Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
#7098: Aug 7th 2019 at 8:22:18 AM

Mentioning Fuushugi yuugi and rape reminded me of one shoujo mangaka whose works are mostly smut with oodles of dubious consent. Among them I can remember 3 very strongly: 1. Popular childhood friend of unpopular girl is hired as her tutor, sexually assaults her in the first lesson and I can't remember if it was the first or second he took her virginity.

2. Aspiring actress is trying to make it big so her manager finds it fit to throw her to sell her body off for recognition. She meets her love interest through him fending her off of a pervert...so that he can be the one to jump her. It does not get better. He also randomly sexually assaults the maids in his house. I think the manager also pulls something.

3 (and this one is the worst) girl meets yakuza guy, at first he actively always avoids getting too physically intimate with her cause he feels "it isn't right to touch her"... Until he kills a girl (that tried to have a her raped mind you) and she freaks out so his next course of action is to kidnap her and then continuously rape her for weeks on end because " she was going to run away from him". She gets amnesia later in the story and forgets all of this so they can brush all the bs under the rug, only thing that redeems it is that "tragic circumstances" boots him out of her life.

I have no idea why I read all of these when I was younger but its only recently I realized how darn weird this mangaka and her stories are, if there's anyone you can argue might have a rape fetish (at least at the point she was writing these) I'd say this one.

I absolutely cannot help but adore handsome 2D boys
Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, Bitch! from Eldritch Nightmareland Since: Jul, 2010 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, Bitch!
#7099: Aug 7th 2019 at 9:16:10 AM

Mayu Shinjo, I think it was, tends to love amping up the sexual content in her Shoujo manga to ludicrous extremes to the point where some speculate its a Stealth Parody on how despite Shoujo being written by women tend to be no better with odd fetsihism of Rape and violence then Seinen authors tend to be.

Edited by Demongodofchaos2 on Aug 7th 2019 at 12:17:01 PM

Watch Symphogear
Mami Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
#7100: Aug 7th 2019 at 9:30:54 AM

If its a stealth parody she's really dedicated to her art. Though a lot of shoujo tend to feature 'forceful' guys. I tend to still enjoy the relationships but some are certainly worse than others. The only thing that didn't make me hate the male leads of gakuen Alice and Shugo chara is 1. I read it when I was younger and got too attached already 2. The girls are at least strong willed enought to deal with them for the most part.

I absolutely cannot help but adore handsome 2D boys

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