OreImo

At the risk of falling into the No True Scotsman fallacy, a true harem series is almost entirely about the affections of various people towards the lead character. In other words, it's a plot frame or part of what defines the series in question.

But Oreimo has more things going for it. The series is based on Kyousuke and Kirino getting closer after being distant to one another for a long time (using eroge of all things as a catalyst).

Everything else has been a logical development since then: meeting new people (Saori, Kuroneko), having to explain away Kirino's hobby to others (their dad, Ayase), their relationship having bumps here and there, showing support towards one another, Kirino leaving to America, Kyousuke dealing with that... and so on.

The development of most girls in the story having feelings for Kyousuke is a natural result from his interactions with them (childhood friend with Manami, helping out Ayase with several things, spending lots of time with Kuroneko, and so on), and it hasn't been something which has (exclusively) driven the story. It just happens to be that because all the girls and Kyousuke gathered in a single place under those circumstances, these dynamics occurred.

As I mentioned earlier, lots of other things happen during the novel that were cut out (particularly the whole stalker subplot) to drive the story, but of them all the harem thing wasn't as prominent. I suppose the anime highlighting this harem dynamic was inevitable, as it influenced Ayase's role in it the most.

That's my take on it.

edited 25th Jun '13 4:57:31 PM by Crinias

Yeah, at this point, the harem dynamic is highlighted almost exclusively to drive the plot. It's there to provide the motive that leads Ayase to spend more time with Kyousuke and to drive her confession. It serves the plot, not the other way around, and it's deemphasized the moment it does its duty.

& So basically, by your definition, a true harem is one where the harem is the plot. Fair enough.

From my perspective, the harem dynamic was also highlighted last episode, and was present throughout the season. Furthermore:

Frankly this still falls under my definition of a harem; how to do a harem well, in fact. It should also be noted that for a number of works "harem" is a subgenre, so quite a lot of harem shows don't have the harem element almost exclusively drive their plots.

edited 26th Jun '13 6:21:29 AM by fillerdude

I decided it was time to pick up the tenth light novel to see what the anime skipped and... yeah that's a lot so far. Including, apparently, Akagi wanting to buy a sex doll that looked like his sister. I've said this before and I'll say it again, Akagi (both of them) deserved more spotlight.

That said, I now must know: context for this?

Episode 13

The Kousaka's Past.

The backstory was important, but I can't help but feel the novels would have handled it better. I don't think Manami had enough justification for telling Kirino not to love her brother. I would have appreciated a slight hint that it was meant to look baseless and harsh.

Kirino getting into eroge was funny though. If nothing else I think the second half shows they're getting good at these montages. But the compression... There shouldn't have to be so many montages in the first place.

That's a nice note to end on, but with this pacing we can't even pretend it's an ending.

On to the Light Novels for me!

Ah, Fuck, Manami is awesome :p She almost redeems the crappiness of the second season. "Nope" :rofl

She's the only one who has even close to a normal reaction to the thing. It's glorious.

Episode 13.

Gods above and below, Lolirino. Woah. It feels like justice, man.

Finally we take a look at what drove a wedge between Kyousuke and Kirino... It's a bit different from what happened in Volume 11, but the main points of the conflict still remain: Kyousuke 'growing up' and not wanting to spend more time with Kirino; Kyousuke losing his drive and motivation (though for a different reason); Kirino being disappointed with how her 'ideal brother' never existed, and last but certainly not least, Manami. Surprised, everyone...?

There's much less evidence than in the novels, but Manami's actually been planning this for quite a while, and there are hints here and there in the anime. It's well known among the cast that Manami is Kyousuke's best friend, so it's sort of implied Kuroneko, Ayase and maybe even Kanako go to her for advice on how to proceed romantically with him: how he'd react in situation X, etc.

For instance,back when I said there was something sinister in Episode 7: Manami tells Kyousuke to go to her if anything happened between him and Kuroneko, likely because Kuroneko had already talked with her (note how in the same scene that she says to Kyousuke he wonders how she could know already that Kuroneko confessed to him). Episode 9, Kyousuke is about to call Manami... but reconsiders at the last second, instead choosing to go to Kirino. Episode 10: Ayase calls Manami, asking how they're going to get rid of the 'thieving cat'; it's played for laughs but it's evidence all the same. Episode 11: As said before Manami is the one who suggests the party of Episode 12, and Kyousuke even thinks that she's the most meddling friend ever... And tidbits here and there, like Kirino's constant dislike of Manami even in Season 1. Oh, and the Season 1 Animated Commentaries.

Now, I don't necessarily hold that Manami is evil, but at the very least she's manipulative, this cannot be denied.

Here's Manami's full answer to what Kirino said:

edited 29th Jun '13 6:00:42 PM by Crinias

The rest of Volume 11 is almost certainly going to be OVA 1/episode 14; now that they've established what kind of people Kyousuke and Kirino were and their relationship, they have enough time to put us in Kyousuke's head for a little bit and to resolve the plot points. Two episodes is enough time to cover volume 12, especially if they cut the flashbacks when K&K were going out and when Ayase was playing caretaker.

The title of this ep, that "I can't possibly fall in love with my brother", hints even more at it.

So, one episode for the rest of volume 11, two more to cover volume 12.

And you don't think it will feel rushed?

Well I expected once we saw the end of this episode there would be almost no surprises.

Actually I did think I heard the author was writing some minor additional anime scenes.

Certain interviews may also have suggested the publisher had certain stipulations about the light novel ending itself, so perhaps the anime will do things slightly differently.

edited 29th Jun '13 10:21:30 PM by UltimatelySubjective

The only episode that's tight coming up is 16. The majority of the flashbacks involving Ayase and Kuroneko will be cut, but not much else will be lost. (Serious LN spoilers below! You've been warned.)

14: Start in media res at Manami's house, flashback, short monologue from Kyousuke about how he really felt while he was trying his hardest (probably dubbed over stuff from 13, to better drive it home), short scene in classroom, he promises, three to four scenes with Sakurai, school trip ends at around 16 minute mark, talk with all three of them, Kyousuke goes to talk to Sakurai, episode 12 prologue as a stinger.

15: Kyousuke asks Kirino out on the Eve, shopping scenes, hotel stop, eroge scene, Skytree scene, chase scene, brief flashback while he's in the car, catches up, "Yes." (Chapters 1 and 3.) That's the strongest way to divide volume 12, so that's almost certain — it gives a better division of "success / now what do we do?"

16: Life counseling, the meet-up the morning after, the album and the tapes (maybe the exchange ceremony before this), graduation, confrontation with Manami, the chapel, epilogue. (4, 5, epilogue, final.) This is the squeeze. Life counseling may be folded into the meet-up, so that they start the episode with that and flip back and forth between the scenes. Not much else should be lost here.

This schedule is pretty doable.

Pretty much. I heard from somewhere that these last episodes might be longer than usual though, that might help with the squeeze.

Episode 13: Kirino in creepy otaku mode.

Manami owning Kirino with a simple "Nope" was hilarious.

Yes, yes it was.

So, having finished the anime, read a bunch of other stuff including some translations, I'll have to say it's a great story, with a rather lackluster ending. Like many stories, there's a lot of potential, and in this case there really is a lot, but the conclusion of it all just doesn't feel worthy of being tacked onto the story. It wasn't satisfying.

Also, those however-many-years-in-the-future endings just drive home the point that the characters basically don't exist outside the narrative. There's no world they belong in, just an empty void waiting for the next time the narrative kicks in. Not that a Distant Finale can't be done well, but in this case, no. I think it would've been better to leave it open.

You know, ultimately, that episode with the girl Kirino met in America was actually good for nothing but Loli fanservice. They should have skipped it to develop that valuable time to the resolution of the core arc.

edited 3rd Jul '13 7:46:52 PM by NapoleonDeCheese

You mean the episode that developed Kirino and Kyousuke's relationship by illustrating how their bond has developed, while also highlighting Kyousuke's importance to Kirino's motivation? Specifically developing an idea which lies at the core of and arguably motivates the entirety of the plot of the series?

I have trouble seeing that episode as pointless considering how its message helps push one of the core themes of the entire series, personally,

Hm. Maybe I'm misremembering parts of that episode as being in others.

Anyway, the girl herself did feel redundant, and kind of a living Big Lipped Alligator. Surely the points seen in that episode could still have been developed without her.

edited 3rd Jul '13 8:14:44 PM by NapoleonDeCheese

Like I said was earlier, the early episodes were the weakest. But my first choice to skip would have been the episode with yandere Ayase. I hear it was based on a drama CD anyway. Considering now a lot of the novel material is now going to be relegated to drama C Ds it's a questionable choice.

Arguably Kirino's running is also important now. You could even tie it into the running stuff in the final episode. However the running episode was mostly bad, and it had like more panty shots than the rest of the season. Except for the end part, which was pretty important.

But I agree with the a sentiment that if they couldn't make the beginning episodes better they should have tried to get to the latter episodes faster, and now a whole extra episode to work with sobs pretty appealing.

This. I mean, it really wasn't that great an episode to be honest, but I'll at least argue that at least it had a bit of a redeeming value to it. Unlike, say, the utterly forgettable first episode.

Still a couple of weeks until the final episodes are released, but I just finished the light novels.

In this post is just my thoughts on the L Ns in general and pre-12. Contains no spoilers, but details not in the anime.

Season 1 did a good job with the light novel, and some of the stuff they cut is an improvement (Kyousuke's harem party doesn't actually need to be three times as long for example), but even taking into account how the anime makes up for some of the deficiencies in the prose, the second season is still inferior to the light novel because of how little fleshing out present in the original is left behind.

To put it another way, in a comparison between the light novel and the anime, I did get the feeling just after the equivalent of season 2's beginning that the plot was now moving with more purpose and in a definite direction (this shift is more or less confirmed by the author said in an interview), but it also retained so much of the sidestories that practically defined season 1 that the change is not jarring, in contrast to season 2 where we are suddenly

Some points I found interesting:

• Kyousuke himself admits to being a siscon in his narration, after reflecting on what he did for his sister (this explains why he says that, unlike the anime). However, he also says he hates his sister still. This mirrors what Kirino says when she openly declares her feelings in front of Kuroneko and Kyousuke.
• One or two details make Kyousuke seem slightly more heroic in the LN. Someone already mentioned how he jumped in front of a (fake) gun for Kirino. He also shrugs off a beating the moment he got Kirino's text at the Meruru event.
• Kyousuuke and Kirino's encountering people on their fake date is less contrived when they mention that the places they went were hangout spots they had visited with friends. It makes Kyousuke and Kirino look careless, but the scenario more likely.
• The different perspectives in later novels are a very good idea. Well executed. Reveal some interestingly self-aware details.
  • Kirino having trouble dealing with Sena was funny. Sena's not normal when she reveals her true self... Somehow Kirino defeated her.
• Kyousuke sniping at both Mikagami and a partly oblivious Akagi for their siscon tendencies was pretty amusing.
• They really shouldn't have cut Kyousuke's father's visit to his apartment. It was a nice moment and it really showed his view of everything. And he tsundaded again too!
• The depiction of Kyousuke's struggles is better. I like how his first serious study session on his own wasn't good enough, as pointed out by Kirino. With Kyousuke's narration and the narrative itself we can also get a pretty good picture of how he wants to improve himself and is trying to come off as less of a pervert (particularly to Ayase).
• Stalker-chan is kinda meh... I think she might actually detract from the narrative.
• The flashback to their shared past is well framed by the present, lending it more context, however...
• ... Sakurai's arc in the flashback was convoluted and it takes focus away from the characters we already know and care about in the present. In concept I find the anime's approach to the Kirino and Kyousuke's past much neater.
• It's a shame the anime seems to have cut the penultimate volume scheming. On the other hand, not explicitly revealing behind the scenes could work out better.
• I was actually chilled by Manami's scheming. I made me want to hide behind Ayase. Yeah... [[strike: How do I say it? It's just that

• The ending of volume 11 sets so many things in motion. If nothing else it's an elegant demonstration of exciting non-action.

I'll post my volume 12 thoughts spoilered for anime watchers.

edited 28th Jul '13 3:54:42 AM by UltimatelySubjective

As for volume 12, there's three episodes, so let's just say I'm hoping they can adapt this part right at least.

Volume 12, spoilers.

• Kyousuke can finally speak tsundere. Or translate at least.
• Kyousuke's school life wrapping up is quite nostalgic. His graduation is realistic, which sadly means it's not quite the crescendo, but the background. But it's enjoyable.
• The ending is well-balanced between conclusive and life-goes-on in the epilogue.
• Fittingly the ending is discussed in a meta way by Kyousuke and Kirino with reference to the industry. But in the end expectations were defied. This is a good thing, the same as the ending which feels like anything could still happen is a good thing.
  • Kyousuke called Not Blood Siblings developments "convenient"
• The ending... They found their own answer. It's thought out, grounded and unique to them although it's not the end of things.

I think by the end it is obvious that there's still no-one closer to Kyousuke's heart than Kirino. And as for Kirino, she remains in Japan in spite of her intentions before Kyousuke's confession.

Frankly, after everything she said I think getting back together with Kuroneko is not impossible, but Kyousuke remaining by Kirino's side is more likely.

It'd be sad if Kyousuke never got on with the other girls, like Ayase, again.

This really was a once in a lifetime thing like Kyousuke said. He will never get that amount of confessions again. Nonetheless I still hate to think he completely severed ties.

These translations of the authors thoughts on the ending do reinforce the ideas behind this kind of book end that is nonetheless also a Kirino end and not sidestepping the issues.

In short I like the ending, but it's not without ambiguity, particularly if you don't have all the context like authorial intent. There is a surprising strength without absolute finality in this ending.

I do look forward to the anime as I suspect it will lend certain things greater impact.

edited 28th Jul '13 5:36:45 AM by UltimatelySubjective

/Nods in appreciation

That pretty much sums it up (although I disagree regarding your reaction to Manami's scheming: hiding behind Ayase sounds like a bad idea in general). All that's needed to wrap it all up is the anime.

So the last three episodes are airing in a bit over 24 hours. Have a subbed preview.

Okay... why doesn't EVERYONE in this series become a couple with their own sister?!?!? Why not just go ALL the way! They already have ONE official couple and another potential one!!

God it annoys me.