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Rename ZombieApocalypse and NightOfTheLivingMooks

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Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#26: Nov 20th 2010 at 4:19:47 PM

Tnu, insisting the titles must be literal isn't going to work, especially when you are arguing against a title that is in wide use outside the wiki the very same way we use it. The vast majority of people who use the term Zombie Apocalypse don't care whether the creatures are true, voodoo-sytle "zombies" or not, or whether they're closer to "ghouls" or "ghasts" or something else.

tnu1138 Dracula Since: Apr, 2009
Dracula
#27: Nov 20th 2010 at 4:22:30 PM

There is also the point when they are specifically not zombies again 30 Days of Night and I Am Legend the former is on a smaller scale but certainly relevant to the trope. Why should zombies get shotgun?

We must survive, all of us. The blood of a human for me, a cooked bird for you. Where is the difference?
rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#28: Nov 20th 2010 at 4:31:42 PM

When the undead rise to conquer the world, and they are some kind of undead monster besides zombies (vampires, say), it is Zombie Apocalypse IN SPACE! no, not exactly, but the spirit of that is correct I think

edited 20th Nov '10 4:34:21 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
tnu1138 Dracula Since: Apr, 2009
Dracula
#29: Nov 20th 2010 at 4:33:06 PM

Not exactly again I point out that the prime vampire example is the Ur-Example so how can it be Recycled In Space?

We must survive, all of us. The blood of a human for me, a cooked bird for you. Where is the difference?
mmysqueeant I'm A Dirty Cowboy from Essairrrrcks Since: Oct, 2010
I'm A Dirty Cowboy
#30: Nov 20th 2010 at 4:38:07 PM

[up] Can I point you back to The Other Wiki, which as I've said already contains the argument on the main page that in I Am Legend (the book, of course, not the film), the antagonists are NOT vampires as established by tradition?

You seem very eager to dismiss zombies that don't fit the traditional zombie origins as 'not being true zombies', but less eager to dismiss vampires that don't fit traditional vampire legends as 'not being true vampires' in this case. Why is that?

It seems a weird thing to do.

EDIT: Also, Trope Codifier in many cases trumps the Ur-Example. In this case, it doesn't really have to, as the vampires are close enough to ghouls to fit the Ghoul Apocalypse trope anyway. There's really not a great argument for a re-name here.

edited 20th Nov '10 4:39:51 PM by mmysqueeant

rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#31: Nov 20th 2010 at 4:41:48 PM

Comment: the "zombies" in 28 Days Later are not true zombies, they are still "living" but infected with the Rage virus. But they are totally zombies. And it's only the end of the world as far as the protagonists know, it turns out that the UK is quarantined by the ocean. And it's totally a Zombie Apocalypse scenario.

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
tnu1138 Dracula Since: Apr, 2009
Dracula
#32: Nov 20th 2010 at 4:46:49 PM

I'm veyr much the same about vampires but i'm just citing examples here Going into my policy on vampires and the reason i make exceptions would be derailing this thread.

We must survive, all of us. The blood of a human for me, a cooked bird for you. Where is the difference?
tnu1138 Dracula Since: Apr, 2009
Dracula
#33: Nov 20th 2010 at 4:57:16 PM

so how are they "totally zombies" if they don't resemble zombies in the slightest?

We must survive, all of us. The blood of a human for me, a cooked bird for you. Where is the difference?
rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#34: Nov 20th 2010 at 4:58:17 PM

Woah, "slightest"? I didn't say that. The 28 Days Later monsters do resemble zombies. Strongly. They "zombie walk", they are mindless, they eat people, they act like zombies and look like zombies. But they are fast. *shudder* And alive. So technically not zombies. But that is totally a zombie movie. A good one.

edited 20th Nov '10 5:07:17 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#35: Nov 20th 2010 at 5:00:55 PM

The general concept is still known as a Zombie Apocalypse, even if they're not the creatures involved. The idea creates a connotation of inhuman beings swarming and overcoming humanity's control of the planet.

In the common, idiosyncratic mindset, zombies tend to be the most common being associated with the trope. Whether or not this perception reflects reality is frankly irrelevant. Yes, there are frequently no zombines involved. Even in most cases, possibly, I'm not versed enough in the culture to provide statistics. But the zombie apocalypse idea has gained mainstream credence, with the "preparations to survive a zombie apocalypse" idea being a long-lasting and pervasive meme.

I can't help but feel that the issues that the title is too specific are essentially semantic, unless some sort of misuse can be proven.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
mmysqueeant I'm A Dirty Cowboy from Essairrrrcks Since: Oct, 2010
I'm A Dirty Cowboy
#36: Nov 20th 2010 at 5:02:59 PM

[up]x4 But if you're saying that your code should be applied to everything, it needs to be internally consistent.

You can't say "all zombies have to fit the folklore" but that "most vampires have to fit the folklore, except these ones for subjective reasons". It's either a subjective issue or an objective issue, you can't have it both ways.

In this case, you're making your argument a subjective issue, so I think that means, though you're fine to hold those opinions yourself, of course, you can't use this framework to insist that others hold to your opinions on where types of monsters begin and end.

I understand where you're coming from. There's a cut-off in my mind, too, and like yours, mine is based on internal criterion. I too would consider I Am Legend to be vampires of sorts. It's just that the trope is Zombie Apocalypse, largely thru pop-cultural osmosis, and this is the trope that people are invoking when they make a film along these lines.

The very idea of a Vampire Apocalypse is a little bit ridiculous in terms of the 'true' vampire background. They're parasitic, aristocratic bearers of plague, walking metaphors for the sexually predatory noblemen of the time, rats, and economic burdens placed on the poor.

These creatures don't make sense in an apocalyptic context, as they are not infectious enough, are dependent on humans continuing to survive, and are usually portrayed as intelligent (some are driven mad/idiotic by being stuck in their tombs, I seem to recall).

I just don't think it works as a trope.

EDIT: I withdraw my argument about your viewpoints being inconsistent and subjective - they're based on clear guidelines. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I still have strong doubts about renaming this trope though.

edited 20th Nov '10 6:24:47 PM by mmysqueeant

tnu1138 Dracula Since: Apr, 2009
Dracula
#37: Nov 20th 2010 at 5:06:14 PM

and why is semantics not important? Even accepting that the mdoern day zombies should be called such they again are not always the ones involved and thus why should we single other scenarios out just becuase zombie gaine dmainstreem popularity? Again I amnot saying it should be exclusive to vampires and you completely misrepresented my and misunderstood my personal logic on what makes a proper of each. if you want to discuss it pleas take it to a PM because its leaving the point.

edited 20th Nov '10 5:09:35 PM by tnu1138

We must survive, all of us. The blood of a human for me, a cooked bird for you. Where is the difference?
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#38: Nov 20th 2010 at 5:25:34 PM

When a phrase has entered common usage for the same concept we are talking about, we use it, whether it's completely literally accurate or not. Zombie Apocalypse is one of those terms. People were calling that particular scenario a Zombie Apocalypse long before we made our page on it.

tnu1138 Dracula Since: Apr, 2009
Dracula
#39: Nov 20th 2010 at 5:32:51 PM

ok lets goback to my original po int I let my bias get in the way a little while back. the fact is not whether these ghouls can or should be considred zombies. Its that sometiems completley different creatures are used for the situation.

Ok let me see if I can explain my idea here a little better. the title should be more general to thigns other then zombies to avoid exclusion where it canbe avoided. The description should likewise shift its focus to the concept itself rather then its connecton to zombies. and Finally examples shouldbe split in folders by type (Zombie, Vampire, whatever else) and THEN by medium like the Our Zombies Are Different page seperates based on type.

edited 20th Nov '10 5:42:04 PM by tnu1138

We must survive, all of us. The blood of a human for me, a cooked bird for you. Where is the difference?
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#40: Nov 20th 2010 at 5:46:22 PM

Yes, and it is still commonly called a Zombie Apocalypse scenario.

"Ghoul Apocalypse" gets 2660 Google hits, almost all of them referring to the Feral Ghoul Apocalypse mod for Fallout 3 Nexus. Telling it to not return any results that contain the word "fallout" knocks it down to about 700. "Zombie Apocalypse", on the other hand, has 1,110,000 hits

tnu1138 Dracula Since: Apr, 2009
Dracula
#41: Nov 20th 2010 at 5:57:12 PM

the problem is that it reeks of both You Keep Using That Word as well as Call a Pegasus a "Hippogriff" again I propose the following

Rename to somthing more general

change description to somthing more general

Soft Split by type of creature used in specific scenarios. and creat proper redirects that way the trope can still be found by those who are looking for htat specific title.

We must survive, all of us. The blood of a human for me, a cooked bird for you. Where is the difference?
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#42: Nov 20th 2010 at 5:59:07 PM

This is a pre-existing term. Changing it will make people unable to locate the trope. It's just what it's called.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
tnu1138 Dracula Since: Apr, 2009
Dracula
#43: Nov 20th 2010 at 6:00:25 PM

that is not ture the search will still turn up the title as a redirect but the main title should not show favoratism to one specific variation of the trope.

We must survive, all of us. The blood of a human for me, a cooked bird for you. Where is the difference?
rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#44: Nov 20th 2010 at 6:01:09 PM

Did you know that "trope" actually means something slightly different than the way we use it?

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
tnu1138 Dracula Since: Apr, 2009
Dracula
#45: Nov 20th 2010 at 6:03:29 PM

pleas do tell.

We must survive, all of us. The blood of a human for me, a cooked bird for you. Where is the difference?
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#46: Nov 20th 2010 at 6:04:55 PM

But that's the way people use it. It doesn't matter if it's plants, vampires, or giant rats. People will still call the trope a Zombie Apocalypse scenario outside the wiki.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#47: Nov 20th 2010 at 6:05:43 PM

Why, that's not Completely Missing The Point at all.

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
tnu1138 Dracula Since: Apr, 2009
Dracula
#48: Nov 20th 2010 at 6:08:22 PM

What? I enjoy semantics I'll have to examine this further. and just because its commonly used to mean somthign its not does not make it a valid reason to keep the title we should know better.

We must survive, all of us. The blood of a human for me, a cooked bird for you. Where is the difference?
rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#49: Nov 20th 2010 at 6:09:37 PM

There are a lot of lurkers in any online forum, so this isn't an absolute test or anything, but the fact that no one has agreed with you that Zombie Apocalypse is an unnecessarily narrow title is a giant blinking clue that maybe it's not.

edited 20th Nov '10 6:12:36 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
tnu1138 Dracula Since: Apr, 2009
Dracula
#50: Nov 20th 2010 at 6:12:46 PM

I still fail to see how it is not ovelry narrow by singling out zombies when they are not always the case yeah its a meme of sorts but the title just isn't properly inclusive of other such examples.

We must survive, all of us. The blood of a human for me, a cooked bird for you. Where is the difference?

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