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Rename ZombieApocalypse and NightOfTheLivingMooks

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tnu1138 Dracula Since: Apr, 2009
Dracula
#1: Nov 20th 2010 at 2:53:20 PM

The former is overly narrow as this can also happen to other creatures of undead variety such as vampires in I Am Legend or 30 Days of Night. The latter could easily be renamed to What Measure Is An Undead or What Measure Is A Non-Living or some such. Pleas discuss and don't shoot down off the bat.

We must survive, all of us. The blood of a human for me, a cooked bird for you. Where is the difference?
rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#2: Nov 20th 2010 at 2:58:43 PM

I think a Vampire Apocalypse counts as an example of a Zombie Apocalypse without renaming it. Anything where the world is ended by being overrun with monsters, imo, probably leaning toward undead ones (or otherwise a kind of monster that humans might turn into, and aren't human anymore). If the article description restricts itself to zombies only, you can probably change it. Redirects are delicious, also.

edited 20th Nov '10 3:05:31 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
tnu1138 Dracula Since: Apr, 2009
Dracula
#3: Nov 20th 2010 at 3:00:19 PM

yes but using the word zombie is overly specific Its fine as a redirect but the actual title should be more general.

We must survive, all of us. The blood of a human for me, a cooked bird for you. Where is the difference?
rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#4: Nov 20th 2010 at 3:03:00 PM

There are many cases of a specific title actually being about a more general subject. Arson, Murder, and Jaywalking isn't only about a list of crimes, Mugging the Monster isn't only about a monstrous victim, Precision F-Strike isn't only about the word "fuck", etc. "Zombie Apocalypse" is a general-use phrase that comes from outside this wiki.

edited 20th Nov '10 3:04:14 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
tnu1138 Dracula Since: Apr, 2009
Dracula
#5: Nov 20th 2010 at 3:07:36 PM

true but is it automatically excused by precedent? Perhaps we should draw attention to these other tropes. the F Bomb examples are tircky because its hard for the titles to work otherwise but this is not dependent on specifying zombies.

We must survive, all of us. The blood of a human for me, a cooked bird for you. Where is the difference?
mmysqueeant I'm A Dirty Cowboy from Essairrrrcks Since: Oct, 2010
I'm A Dirty Cowboy
#6: Nov 20th 2010 at 3:24:44 PM

Well, if we split off vampires, I worry that people would say:

Hey, Such-and-such (Victims of The Virus, for instance) aren't true zombies, either. We need a separate page for that!

Then eventually as that goes on and on, you end up with a stub that catalogues the only zombie apocalypse that concerned explicitly Vodoun rituals being used to individually raise billions of zombie warriors, a small page on ghouls, another stub on vampires, etc etc

The best way I can find to describe why it's currently named as it is is that even when writers use a 'vampire' apocalypse, what they tend to invoke as a trope is the idea of a Zombie Apocalypse as popularised by George Romero. So it's not really a Vampire Apocalypse, it's just a Zombie Apocalypse...With Vampires!

That's how I see it, anyway.

tnu1138 Dracula Since: Apr, 2009
Dracula
#7: Nov 20th 2010 at 3:27:42 PM

no what George Romero was invoking was Richard Matheson's Vampire Apocalypse with Ghouls. and where is this only vodoun case out of curisity? i'm just saying we should make the title less specific to a creature that it doesn't even cover.

We must survive, all of us. The blood of a human for me, a cooked bird for you. Where is the difference?
mmysqueeant I'm A Dirty Cowboy from Essairrrrcks Since: Oct, 2010
I'm A Dirty Cowboy
#8: Nov 20th 2010 at 3:30:54 PM

In the popular imagination, Zombie = Ghoul. I was referring to the earliest example I can think of, the idea that it's Older Than I Think is pretty immaterial really.

If you can point to an actual Vampire Apocalypse that inspired George Romero, as opposed to a Ghoul Apocalypse, then that's different.

You also ignored the rest of my post, which concentrated on more practical issues.

EDIT: The point I was making with the Voodoo Apocalypse was more that such a film (covering true apocalypse only) would be incredibly rare, and that restricting examples only to 'proper' folkloric zombies would be counterproductive.

EDIT 2: [down][down]Most examples are zombies/ghouls, which are one thing for most people. The meaning of zombie-as-ghoul has supplanted (sadly) the old meaning of zombie in the public consciousness, which means that in public discourse zombie means ghoul. Please remember that the purpose of this wiki is not to preserve facts, but only to show tropes — if necessary, you could do a Useful Notes on this though. It sounds like you know a hell of a lot about it.

TOW says: "Although Matheson calls the assailants in his novel "vampires", and though their condition is transmitted through blood and garlic is an apotropaic, there is little similarity between them and "vampires" as developed by Bram Stoker and his successors".

edited 20th Nov '10 3:44:00 PM by mmysqueeant

rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#9: Nov 20th 2010 at 3:31:44 PM

I think you are missing the point that "zombie apocalypse" means "the end of the world, brought about by it being overrun with monsters that replace humans"... and the outbreak is usually zombies. Zombie apocalypses are the "trope codifier", so to speak.

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
tnu1138 Dracula Since: Apr, 2009
Dracula
#10: Nov 20th 2010 at 3:35:41 PM

again they are not usualy zombies. and I had just cited Richard Matheson's I Am Legend as the Ur-Example that inspired Romero.

We must survive, all of us. The blood of a human for me, a cooked bird for you. Where is the difference?
rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#11: Nov 20th 2010 at 3:37:12 PM

Please read Trope Codifier.

A zombie apocalypse is, as far as I know, usually caused by zombies. Whether or not there are exceptions.

edited 20th Nov '10 3:37:57 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
tnu1138 Dracula Since: Apr, 2009
Dracula
#12: Nov 20th 2010 at 3:39:51 PM

I was asked to cite an earlier example of a vampire apocalypse that inspired Romero I did so and cited the Ur-Example of the trope. we can have all instances of the trope still be on the same page while changing the title to somthing more inclusive. Why should the Trope Codefier take precedence over anything else?

We must survive, all of us. The blood of a human for me, a cooked bird for you. Where is the difference?
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#13: Nov 20th 2010 at 3:40:55 PM

Adding Vampire Apocalypse should take care of it. It would be similar to what is going on with Green-Skinned Space Babe.

Fight smart, not fair.
rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#14: Nov 20th 2010 at 3:41:26 PM

[up][up] ...because "zombie apocalypse" means exactly the right thing and "mook apocalypse" means the wrong thing.

Check out the Laconic: "The undead rise up to conquer the earth."

edited 20th Nov '10 3:45:25 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
tnu1138 Dracula Since: Apr, 2009
Dracula
#15: Nov 20th 2010 at 3:42:44 PM

yes but perhaps they should BOTH be redirects rather then just one being a redirect. and the main title should be osmthing more general also i'll need to look at X Skinned Space Babe later and think of a good title.

We must survive, all of us. The blood of a human for me, a cooked bird for you. Where is the difference?
tnu1138 Dracula Since: Apr, 2009
Dracula
#16: Nov 20th 2010 at 3:44:04 PM

no it does not mean "exactly the right thing" it means specificaly zombies which are never actually seen in most if not all cases of the trope. We see ghouls that are called zombies.

We must survive, all of us. The blood of a human for me, a cooked bird for you. Where is the difference?
rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#17: Nov 20th 2010 at 3:46:09 PM

[up] Oh! You aren't familiar with that phrase. It does mean exactly that.

I didn't know what Morton's Fork meant, had to read the article.

edited 20th Nov '10 3:51:59 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
tnu1138 Dracula Since: Apr, 2009
Dracula
#18: Nov 20th 2010 at 3:48:05 PM

How exactly does it mean exactly that when its not always Zombies and technically rarely does involve zombies? the Apocalypse part is fine its the zombie part that needs to go.

We must survive, all of us. The blood of a human for me, a cooked bird for you. Where is the difference?
mmysqueeant I'm A Dirty Cowboy from Essairrrrcks Since: Oct, 2010
I'm A Dirty Cowboy
#19: Nov 20th 2010 at 3:49:26 PM

[up][up][up] I think you need to write more clearly, take more time over your posts. It's getting difficult to read them, they're coming out mangled.

This wiki is not for you or me. It is for the reader. If I had my own wiki, I'd make sure people knew the difference between ghouls and zombies. As they don't, we need a trope name that conveys the trope clearly to most people. Most people think zombie when they think of this kind of apocalypse — many don't know of the existence of the word Mook, some don't know about the existence of the word Ghoul.

As it is, for PRACTICALLY EVERYONE, i.e. all mainstream culture, zombie means ghoul. Therefore, in anything intended to appeal to mainstream culture (which tvtropes is, in large part), zombie will be used as shorthand for zombies and ghouls.

I'm ever so sorry this offends your purist sensibilities, but that's how it is.

edited 20th Nov '10 3:51:02 PM by mmysqueeant

tnu1138 Dracula Since: Apr, 2009
Dracula
#20: Nov 20th 2010 at 3:52:56 PM

[up] Hey i'm jsut trying to work it out in a way that it includes examples that are not "Zombies" exclusively. Also saying there is no reason it shouldn't be a redirect but that the main title should allow for more variations and not assume "zombie" as a default..

edited 20th Nov '10 3:56:36 PM by tnu1138

We must survive, all of us. The blood of a human for me, a cooked bird for you. Where is the difference?
rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#21: Nov 20th 2010 at 3:55:12 PM

My point with the Arson, Murder, and Jaywalking examples were not that they are precedent, or that those are bad so other titles can be bad too, but that those are great names. Article titles are not 100% restrictive. (Although, if they strongly imply an erroneous restriction, maybe they are bad.)

Article titles do not set the definition of the trope. Article descriptions do. Renaming the article is the wrong course of action for the change you want.

edited 20th Nov '10 4:00:42 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
mmysqueeant I'm A Dirty Cowboy from Essairrrrcks Since: Oct, 2010
I'm A Dirty Cowboy
#22: Nov 20th 2010 at 3:57:35 PM

[up][up] Apologies, my post was overly confrontational in tone and content.

Not sure why.

Again, sorry for being so rude with so little provocation.

edited 20th Nov '10 3:57:55 PM by mmysqueeant

tnu1138 Dracula Since: Apr, 2009
Dracula
#23: Nov 20th 2010 at 3:58:58 PM

Ok perhaps a better compromise. create a supertrope and have Zombie Apocalypse as a sub trope. at any rate the title AND description are problematic because they both assume "zombie" as a default.

We must survive, all of us. The blood of a human for me, a cooked bird for you. Where is the difference?
rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#24: Nov 20th 2010 at 4:02:49 PM

There is not always a middle ground. Sometimes compromise is a terrible solution.

If you want to make a new article, YKTTW can help. If you want to edit the description, hey presto, go ahead.

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
tnu1138 Dracula Since: Apr, 2009
Dracula
#25: Nov 20th 2010 at 4:06:46 PM

again editing the description will require a major overhaul of said description to not have "zombie" as the default and again the title poses the very same problem.

edited 20th Nov '10 4:18:55 PM by tnu1138

We must survive, all of us. The blood of a human for me, a cooked bird for you. Where is the difference?

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