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Tzetze DUMB from a converted church in Venice, Italy Since: Jan, 2001
DUMB
#376: Sep 23rd 2009 at 2:48:22 PM

Hm, that image stopped working. Well, you can still see it in the archive.

[1] This facsimile operated in part by synAC.
VampireBuddha Calendar enthusiast from Ireland (Wise, aged troper) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Calendar enthusiast
#377: Sep 23rd 2009 at 3:46:24 PM

@Tzetze: I meant TPLIF based it on the Chick tract.

Ukrainian Red Cross
Tzetze DUMB from a converted church in Venice, Italy Since: Jan, 2001
Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#379: Sep 24th 2009 at 1:01:02 AM

@Tzetze: The problem is hotlinking, even if it's not in-page.

Copy-and-paste the address in a browser that doesn't have the "wrong" image in its cache (example: IE if you're using Firefox) and it should work.

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
Wraith_Magus Bibliophiliac Since: Jun, 2009
Bibliophiliac
#380: Sep 24th 2009 at 11:39:09 PM

OK, this chapter is huge. It's 200 pages of crap. And I do mean that in the sense of "raw, stinking sewage". Sorry for the delay in doing this, but I think I'll just ram through it all in one go, and not really cover everything in this chapter, because it's 200 goddamn pages of this shit.

Now, remember that there are two different kinds of magic, here. One is Chaos Magic, which tends to be basically a few things Hall ripped straight out of D&D (we'll call these "the magic worth using") or else are basically just words he flipped to in the Dictionary, and decided to make a spell out of it. (I can think of no other reason why "Defenistration" is a spell.) The Ceremonial magic is named the most insipidly long-winded and unintuitive things that Hall could come up with, such as "An Excellent Spell for Silencing, for Subjugating, and for Restraining." Yes, that's the name of the spell. Trust me, that's not even remotely the worst of it.

First of all, I want to say this: Ceremonial magic is completely and utterly useless in combat. This is the magic that a Mage gets. He can't use the Chaos magic that other casters get, and he has to use his spells in combat to gain XP. That's it. Period. Game over. Don't even bother playing, you already lose. (But we already knew that, didn't we?) I'm just flat-out astounded, though, Hall really outdid himself. He actually made magic so useless it was impossible to advance past level 1. REALISTIFUCKUP!

What does he get at level one, you might ask? Well, I'll get to that after complaining about something else.

In fact, there are far, FAR less Ceremonial spells in this game than there are Chaos spells. A quick count... 82 to 401. Remember, this is spread out against 10 levels, and anything over level 5 will take at least a half hour to cast, anyway, ALSO making it useless in combat. In fact, anything above level 3 spells are going to take several rounds of combat in a game which prides itself in one-hit-kills. Enjoy your character sheet confetti.

Now then, at least these level 1 spells you start with are going to be quick, right? I can at least cast 10 magic missiles in one round, and even if that costs 80 MP in a round, and I only get 40 MP, that's still worth something, right? HAHA! Well, there's a surprise in store for you! In fact, most of the offensive low-level spells are touch-based in a game where armor is the only method of not dying in one hit, and wizards are heavily penalized for wearing armor. And they do things like "Bestow Aching Back", "Bestow Earache", "Bestow Sniffles", and in fact, there's 12 of these spells seperately. In fact, there is a Force Missile spell that is basically just Magic Missile, does 1d10 damage, with no saves, and that 1d10 damage is EXACTLY THE SAME as the touch-based alternative "Bestow Minor Harm". But hey, at least "Bestow Earache" has negative effects to it. He also gives you the wonderous "Force Fart" spell. Yes, now you, too, can use your years of study and prayer to become a cleric in the service of your God to do "Pull my Finger" jokes.

You can also get a spell to summon a familiar. It's great, it's basically a normal cat, but if it ever gets killed, and it only has 1d10 hit points, you must save or die, and losing your magic casting powers for 1d6 months even if you survive. It's like a spell for giving yourself a Weaksauce Weakness for absolutely no benefit to you! REALISTIJESUSCHRISTAREYOUKIDDINGME?!ATODDLERCOULDSEETHEFLAWSINTHISGAMEDESIGN!

But wait, this is the Chaos Magic, the magic that at least doesn't suck too hard.

Ceremonial Magic? What starting spells do you get to rush into combat to gain XP with so you can go up in spell levels and use the earth-shaking shit?

Well, you get Against Menstration, a spell where you burn donkey dung to stop a woman from getting a period. You also get a Test of Pregnancy spell. Exactly What It Says on the Tin. It even works like a pregnancy test strip, but with a magicked leaf. Actually, I don't have much problem with that in concept, I've always been a fan of Mundane Utility, and lamented the 4e D&D making just about all skills and spells damage-based. What I have a problem with is that every one of these spells is like this. They are extremely narrow in application, and a disturbingly large number of them work only on women, and basically have no save.

What am I talking about?

Let's see, how about Cup Spell, a level 4 ceremonial spell that lets you make some magic wine. If a woman drinks this wine, she becomes the caster's effective slave, falling helplessly in love with him, and willing to do anything for him. No save. Who said Gor?

That's just one spell of dozens, mind you, there are plenty of spells like Eternal Spell For Binding A Lover. (A real gem. It's a spell that lets you rub your "engorged penis" on a woman's orifice to make her beg for it in that orifice every day, no save. There is absolutely nothing remotely like a spell for women to cast. In fact, I have no doubt whatsoever that Hall disbelieves any woman would ever play his game, and that no man would want to play a female character.) How about Charm to Induce Insomnia I and II? (Only works on females, and it just keeps them awake. Finally, your chance to be a total fucking dick for no reason! The second one is permanent, and lets you kill her if you keep it up long enough. No Saves.)

But there are some spells that sound like they'd be good for combat. Like, say, Evil Sleep. This level 1 spell (one second to cast), requires you make a potion, and get someone to drink it. Also, there are spells like Business Spell, which this is the description for it. Remember, this is a one-second spell.

Take the beeswax, juice, and ivy, and make a figure of a merchant having a hollow bottom, clasping in his right hand a heralds wand, and in his right a small bag. Write on hierarchic papyrus these names, and you will have continuous business: CHAIOCHEN OTIBILMEMNOUOTH ATRAUICH. Put the papyrus inside the figure, and fill in the hole with the same beeswax. Then, deposit it in a wall, in an inconspicuous place, and crown him on the outside, and sacrifice to him a cock, and make a drink offereing of wine, and light for him a lamp that is not colored red.

That kind of ritual for a 1-second spell is NOT AT ALL abnormal for FATAL. There's even one where the ritual is honestly a page long. I can't copy paste out of these things, so I'm not writing that one out. Still, it's a one second spell and you can do ten of them in a round (theoretically).

Oh, but let's also talk about some of the stupid spells that I swear were created just because Hall wanted to impress people that he knew what these words meant, or was capable of using a dictionary.

  • Ablation. "KALI MA!" Lets you pull an organ out of a humanoid body. If you pull out the heart, the person is supposed to stay alive, and the heart will keep beating for "1d2 Minutes". This guy claims to have a biologist for a wife. HA!
  • Definistration. Throws someone out of a window. Why why why?
  • evanescence - invisibility. He already had another invisibility spell.
  • Oophagus - target must now eat only eggs. Permanent, No Save.
  • Oroanal - Target is forced into super-cloaca time. Only one orifice works, and if it's the anus, you poop, pee, reproduce, and eat, all through your ass. No Save.
  • Tenesmus - can't pee.

Now then, let's go on to some of the other spell lines in Chaos magic. You get this lovely line of spells called "Augment _____". These are kind of like the "Bull's Strength" spells from D&D, they give you a boost of 1d6 to a random stat. The difference? They are ALL PERMANENT. That's right, in a game where they keep you from advancing based on stats, you can just fucking cast a spell that has, at worst, some random annoying ingredient to collect, and you can give yourself infinite stats by just sitting at home constantly pumping these spells out on yourself. Granted, it's level 6, so each one takes a half-hour, but whatever. Can't wait for level 6? Well, there are plenty of other augmenting spells that are permanent, like, say, Develop Breasts. Permanent cupsize upgrade. Male or Female. It's touch-based, but other than that, no save. And no undo. I am not a violent person by any means, but I have to repress my desire to punch my monitor right now. Oh, and they also have a lovely "Augment Debauchery" version, as well, and it lists examples of a man giving his "Whore" (the job) girlfriend (named "Innocentia") a ring of decreased debauchery, so she would have a lower debauchery score, so his precious Whore girlfriend wouldn't go out whoring herself around to other guys. A sorcerer then comes in, and casts Augment Debauchery, "without her knowing", even though this is a spell that takes a half hour of chanting, but obviously, Hall hasn't the slightest fucking clue what sort of casting times he put into his spells, so Innocentia doesn't realize the guy chanting and waving around cow dung and a statue carved out of a dried horse's penis around in a magic circle was casting a spell. "Fortunately for her boyfriend", that spell only ups her Debauchery by 1, so she's still only willing to take "fingering", which makes her a pretty bad Whore, so the sorcerer is dissapointed. The story ends there, but I assume the sorcerer just cast another Mind Rape spell this time and enslaved her, no save.

God fucking damnit, I can't stand it anymore. Maybe I can be persuaded to take another foray into this, but I think you get the point. This magic system is completely unworkable, completely crude and sex-based, and amazingly concerned with shit jokes or mind rape.

Charlatan Since: Mar, 2011
#381: Sep 24th 2009 at 11:43:13 PM

You wanna talk mind rape? Let's talk about your audience.

Because dear God I can't believe someone wrote this shit.

Tzetze DUMB from a converted church in Venice, Italy Since: Jan, 2001
DUMB
#382: Sep 24th 2009 at 11:44:36 PM

You should go take a walk in the nearest park, Wraith_Magus.

[1] This facsimile operated in part by synAC.
Wraith_Magus Bibliophiliac Since: Jun, 2009
Bibliophiliac
#383: Sep 24th 2009 at 11:47:39 PM

Sadly, it's 3 AM over here, and after all this rape talk, I'm not going anywhere outside the house until daybreak.

EnglishIvy Since: Aug, 2011
#384: Sep 24th 2009 at 11:48:04 PM

Remember, this is a one-second spell.

Maybe mages work really, really fast?

Wraith_Magus Bibliophiliac Since: Jun, 2009
Bibliophiliac
#385: Sep 24th 2009 at 11:51:20 PM

Ah, I forgot, the closest thing to a low-level attack spell for Mages is a spell that lets you write someone's name down on a bronze plate, put it on your sandles, and as long as you walk, you deal 1d8 damage per step on creatures who never have more than about 40 HP, and it lasts for a full day, and has a range of miles, and requires no visual contact to take place, and no save. It's a level 2 spell.

Tzetze DUMB from a converted church in Venice, Italy Since: Jan, 2001
DUMB
#386: Sep 24th 2009 at 11:53:04 PM

You know, in that original review, at one point it's mentioned that a lot of the ideas actually seem pretty original, they're just done in... how to put it... insanely shitty ways. The example there was a Jar of [] but somebody's going to get to that later and I don't want to spoil it. The magic items are, somehow, worse.

edited 24th Sep '09 11:53:23 PM by Tzetze

[1] This facsimile operated in part by synAC.
Wraith_Magus Bibliophiliac Since: Jun, 2009
Bibliophiliac
#387: Sep 24th 2009 at 11:55:03 PM

Oh, and another thing: Remember, you only gain XP when your life is in danger, but you get 3 XP per MP. Because you can cast a spell in 1 second if it's a level 1 spell, that means you can spend 80 MP in a round, whereas the 5-second level 2 spells only let you spend 32 MP in a round. Therefore, for a sorcerer or priest, your level up spell is Magic Missile Force Missile (real creative rename, there), which gives you theoretically 240 XP per round of combat (1,000 XP to level 2, and it doubles every level from there on), and is more than capable of killing 2-3 enemies per round, although at level one, you won't likely have more than 40 MP to start with, anyway.

Charlatan Since: Mar, 2011
#388: Sep 24th 2009 at 11:56:02 PM

Worse? What, like, armor-defeating rocket-propelled dildos or something?

Tzetze DUMB from a converted church in Venice, Italy Since: Jan, 2001
DUMB
#389: Sep 24th 2009 at 11:57:28 PM

I posted some (SPOILERS! lawlz) in the old thread.

Basically: yes.

edited 24th Sep '09 11:57:40 PM by Tzetze

[1] This facsimile operated in part by synAC.
Wraith_Magus Bibliophiliac Since: Jun, 2009
Bibliophiliac
#390: Sep 24th 2009 at 11:58:49 PM

You wish, that's just nasty, but kind of makes sense.

No, it has things like "Sperm Shields" that instantly impregnante females with more sperm shields that rip out of their bodies, and kill them instantly. No Save.

MadeofMeat Since: Jan, 2001
#391: Sep 25th 2009 at 12:00:21 AM

Why does Induce Insomnia only affect females?

Tzetze DUMB from a converted church in Venice, Italy Since: Jan, 2001
DUMB
#392: Sep 25th 2009 at 12:01:21 AM

Because Byron Hall is fucked up?

Why is his name "Byron"? I've never heard that name before aside from the obvious.

edited 25th Sep '09 12:02:06 AM by Tzetze

[1] This facsimile operated in part by synAC.
MadeofMeat Since: Jan, 2001
#394: Sep 25th 2009 at 12:03:57 AM

Will do. I should have this keyboard carved into a homicide totem in less than a second.

Wraith_Magus Bibliophiliac Since: Jun, 2009
Bibliophiliac
#395: Sep 25th 2009 at 12:04:05 AM

Because it wouldn't showcase a hatred of all things female if it were equal-opportunity. As far as magic is concerned, it's just raw misogyny. It specifically has easily a few dozen spells, all of which let you mentally enslave, torment, or instantly kill women with no save, but it protects any male character from similar treatment. In fact, there's an entire line of spells about sex slavery, basically different only in duration. And then there are a couple other lines of spells that are fairly similar, but more about "love" (as far as mentally enslaving someone to make them think they are in love can be love) than just outright "lust".

Men, however, are perfectly safe from any kind of magic like this. They just have to worry about a sorcerer giving them farts or making them sprout breasts, or giving them Cloacas.

edit: actually, the most important thing is that if women could cast these spells, it would lead to that most horrific thought of all: A female manipulator who contolled the men around her. Which is of course, one of the most mythologically accurate things Byron Hall could have done, since such a thing would be THE classical mythological villain. Basically, Byron Hall has just out-misogynized the GODDAMN GREEKS!

edited 25th Sep '09 12:06:14 AM by Wraith_Magus

Tzetze DUMB from a converted church in Venice, Italy Since: Jan, 2001
DUMB
#396: Sep 25th 2009 at 12:05:36 AM

Or making everything in the area hate them until they sodomize a cougar.

[1] This facsimile operated in part by synAC.
Charlatan Since: Mar, 2011
#397: Sep 25th 2009 at 12:08:06 AM

Correction to my prior post: Kill me, burn the body, and remove my soul from existence with an exorcism, a matter-antimatter bomb, and a black hole. In that order.

MadeofMeat Since: Jan, 2001
#398: Sep 25th 2009 at 12:08:46 AM

See, I was thinking of making my anakim lady character the Distaff Counterpart of your average, debauched male fatalite, but now it looks like that would be impossible.

Arilou Taller than Zim from Quasispace Since: Jan, 2001
Taller than Zim
#399: Sep 25th 2009 at 12:16:32 AM

IIRC he claims (and I'm not exactly sure I disbelieve him) that at least some of these spells are genuine magical incantations. And yes, a lot of them were incredibly fucked up. Magic seems to mostly have been used for A) Love Potion B) Giving people the most hideous and incredibly nasty afflictions you could think of C) Protecting yourself from the above things.

"No, the Singularity will not happen. Computation is hard." -Happy Ent
Wraith_Magus Bibliophiliac Since: Jun, 2009
Bibliophiliac
#400: Sep 25th 2009 at 12:19:12 AM

Well, I can certainly believe that Business Spell thing I talked about was a real spell (it's supposed to give you more customers for your business). After all, it's completely insane to think that could be done in a single second. It's just that since its effect wasn't so powerful, he put it in the 1 second spell slot.

edit: I should qualify, just for clairty, that by "real spell", I mean a spell that was written down and used at some point in real history, regardless of it actually working. In fact, that's probably why the difference between the astoundingly shittily named Mage spells and Ceremonial magic and the Chaos magic that actually does things that a combat magician would actually need.

edited 25th Sep '09 12:20:45 AM by Wraith_Magus


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