During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Okay, so this is probably my first, EP? Writeup? Whatever you call it here. So I finished reading this Elseworld comic, not sure if this version of Lex Luthor might count but hey it be worth a try. Anyway.
What's The Work?
Supergirl and Batgirl is an Elseworld story, in this one, Barbara Gordon's parents get killed by Joe chill instead of Bruce's parents (who act as the Alfred in this story) so she took on the mantel of Batgirl as a result. Supergirl lands in Metropolis and joins the Justice Society, with Wonder Woman as the leader. Lex Luthor himself is a respected businessman but was kidnapped by the Joker (who's a drug addict who made himself buff because he has a crush on Batgirl... Just stick with it) and his partner Professor Hamilton (who used to work with Lex Luthor). So it's up to Supergirl and Batgirl in savin Lex Luthor.
Who's The Villain? What Has He Done?
Lex Luthor himself is a respected businessman of Metropolis who helped revolutionized the city with the help of the Justice Society. He is actually solely motivated out of selfish greed and a need for glory, as after he found a baby Kal-El in his spaceship he remorselessly kills the baby with Kryptonite and used his corpse as an energy source for his lab to revolutionize Metropolis which made him millions. His former partner, Hamilton who played a part in the baby's death, showed remorse for helping Lex so he tried to leave Lex's business, to tell the truth. Lex in return discredited Hamilton and ruined his life, making him a homeless man (the details about it aren't explored much but at the end of the story, we know that he now has no friends or family because of what Lex Luthor did, as he no one tried to call him when he got arrested).
Lex also was the one who hired Joe Chill to kill the entire Wayne family, including Bruce Wayne who was only a child at the time. However, Commissioner Gordon himself attempted to save the Wayne family but he and his wife got killed as a result, leaving Barbara to be adopted by the Wayne family and traumatized as a result. Lex seems to be aware of this but he doesn't care about it. He does meet Supergirl and acted as a father figure to her, but it's only as a means to manipulate her and to keep his good image.
In the story, he gets kidnapped by The Joker who was hired by Hamilton himself so he could force Lex into telling the truth on how he really revolutionized Metropolis. Lex though, convinced Joker to join his side instead and turn the tables on Hamilton, and the two conspire to take care of Supergirl and Batgirl together. He promised Joker that he'll make Batgirl fall for him (Joker), while Joker would take care of Supergirl so he could use her dead body the same way he used Kal-El's body.
When Supergirl finds out about what happened to her infant cousin, Lex stated he didn't kill anyone as he thinks Aliens don't have as many rights as humans do and are worthless beings. Before Supergirl attempts to actually murder Lex because of what he has done to her cousin, Joker attacks her and nearly beats her to death which Lex just taunts her about killing her baby cousin. Batgirl saves Supergirl, and defeated Joker, and revealed Luthor's crimes to the public. Though Luthor may not get jailed for a time due to his wealth and status, his public image has been ruined, so the two heroes vowed he'll face justice one day.
Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Lex only helped revolutionized Metropolis solely for the sake of hiding his crimes and gaining glory. Supergirl stated that he told her that he himself lost his family and can feel what she's facing when they first met, but it was never dwelt upon beyond her statement so we don't know if he cared for his family or not as we don't get to see them talk about it, it was just mentioned by Supergirl. He does act nice towards Supergirl but that was only as a means to manipulate her and to protect his public image, plus he was perfectly fine with Joker beating her nearly to death as an attempt to kill her.
Heinous Standards
His worst crime is that he killed a baby and used the baby's corpse as an energy source in his labs and to gain a public image. He also ruined his former partner's life and leave him with absolutely nothing for trying to expose him to the public, hiring Joe Chill to kill the Waynes including their child which makes him indirectly responsible for Batgirl's parents' death (which he doesn't seem to care about regardless). He also planned to use Supergirl's corpse the same way he did to her deceased cousin, which he bragged about killing. Also, Joker in this one barely does anything, the worst he does is kidnapping Luthor and nearly beating Supergirl to death, which Luthor himself actually wanted him to do in the first place.
Final Verdict
Up to you.
Giving a tentative yes to Luthor.
EDIT: Just posing another question that came to mind. I saw that Sergei/Lord Sneak from Geneshaft had been approved by a user named Master N. The thing is, before Master N proposed him, he was already brought before by another user named Elfen Lied Fan 90. With that said, would you help me finding Elfen's version of his proposal and link it to me via P Ms? Thanks in advance.
Edited by ACT4583 on Feb 2nd 2021 at 8:41:32 AM
BULLET TO THE FACE!
to Torrence, abstain on Lex
Theia - The Crimson Eclipse is an RPG Maker game about a planet going through an energy crisis. Their only hope is to research a red crystal known as Orihalcon, which drives people and monsters mad but can be controlled to serve as an energy source. However, the one who made Orihalcon didn't do so out of any good will.
Who is Halcon?
Halcon is an alien who existed since the beginning of the universe, and sustains its life by consuming planets. This consumption also gives it the knowledge of all living things it consumes, causing it to arrogantly believe its superior knowledge makes it the embodiment of the cosmos. However, just moving around and manually draining planets costs Halcon a lot of energy, making the feeding process challenging. Eventually, Halcon decides to cross further ethical boundaries in order to make the planet-eating process more efficient.
What has it done?
Halcon settles down on Altilliah, one of Ariathale's moons, and creates a humanoid race of mages known as Theia. As a catch, the Theia have Orihalcon running through their veins and cannot live long without an external source of Orihalcon. Since Halcon is the only producer of this mineral, it is able to trick the Theia into worshiping it as a guardian spirit and make them completely dependent on it. It designs an elaborate ritual where it chooses three Apostles to place Catalyths into energy hotspots of target planets and plants Orihalcon into the target planet in order to help the Apostles do their jobs. The Catalyths are special pieces of Orihalcon that are extensions of its creator, allowing Halcon to drain the energy of the target planet along with any organisms living there. The Apostles themselves are partially assimilated by Halcon so that they receive its memories and gain the ability to place Catalyths into the energy hotspots. The Apostles can't reveal the truth to the public without causing mass anarchy, but that didn't stop all of them from trying to oppose Halcon. When an Apostle, Themis, attempts to kill Halcon, she learn the hard way that Halcon can fully assimilate Apostles and regenerate its body using the targeted Apostle's body.
Altilliah itself is filled with Orihalcon-powered monsters, putting the kingdom of Altilliah in a tight spot. Halcon claims that the ritual will spread Orihalcon onto the targeted planet so they can find a new home, but since the planet is drained of all nutrients and becomes a barren wasteland, this is a lie to keep the Altillians loyal to their "guardian." This ritual is repeated for thousands of years on uninhabited planets, with only a minority of people suspecting something is fishy about Halcon. Eventually, Halcon has the next ritual performed on Ariathale, falsely claiming that an inhabited planet is more likely to survive the ritual. Despite two of the current Apostles defecting, the third Apostle, Mishra, kills them and places all the Catalyths, priming Ariathale to be eaten by Halcon.
In the last stretch of the game, the party takes a spacecraft to Altilliah and enters Halcon's lair to stop the ritual. Despite using both Mishra and a fully assimilated Themis, Halcon is severely injured by the party. In response, it caves in its own lair to kill the party, succeeding in killing Rudra. The rest of the party escapes to their spacecraft, but Halcon transforms Themis into a giantess and has Mishra attack the spacecraft, all while declaring that it will eat both Ariathale and Altilliah to punish its enemies. Fortunately, Seth manages to kill Mishra and Rudra's spirit turns into a giant to kill Themis, ending Halcon once and for all. The Altillians learn of Halcon's schemes and move to Ariathale in order to make peace with the nations of Ariathale, use the remaining Orihalcon to survive, and teach people how to safely use Orihalcon.
In one of the bad endings, Halcon succeeds in completing the ritual, and the player is treated to a nice image of Ariathale being sucked dry of energy. In another bad ending, Halcon manages to turn one party member, Nimrod, into an Apostle and uses his body to revive itself.
Heinousness
As a Planet Eater and the Big Bad, it nearly destroys Ariathale in the main endings and succeeds in one of the bad endings. Giving the Altillians false hope of finding a safe home and coercing the Apostles into helping it destroy planets is also incredibly callous and cruel.
The third Apostle, Mishra, is complicit in the ritual and cruelly framed the protagonist Seth for regicide, but the story presents him as a Tragic Villain who was driven mad by the burdens Halcon placed on him and he still cares about his ex enough to try to spare her as much as Halcon will allow. He also allows Seth to kill him in one of the bad endings out of guilt for his crimes, which only underscores how messed up Halcon's ritual is.
The leader of the Scarlet Wyrms, Jormungandr, engages in terrorist attacks and horrific experiments, but he genuinely loves his daughter and has a tragic past, so he couldn't count even with the resource argument.
Mitigating Factors
This could be tricky, since it claims that it needs to eat planets in order to live. On the other hand, it was able to survive off uninhabited planets for millennia and it states that it desires the collective knowledge of all life in the universe, meaning it's motivated by more than its own survival. It sees even the most sapient lifeforms as food or tools to get more food, and considers them all inferior lifeforms.While it does provide Orihalcon for the Altillians, that's only for the sake of maintaining an army to invade other planets. It otherwise ensures that they live in constant peril on a crapsack moon so that they'll always be dependent on its power. When angered in the normal endings, it has no problem killing all Altillians just to spite the party.
It lets the party live in one of the bad endings, but that's because there's nothing they can do to oppose it after it eats their planet. It also knows that the party can't expose its true nature to the Altillians without causing Altillian society to collapse.
Verdict?
I'm not sure due to the factor of its own self-preservation, though I am leaning towards approving it because of its callousness towards all other lifeforms.Sure to Luthor... gonna think on the other one and here
is Elfen's EP... which was more of an Anti-EP as he seemed to take the character as a WIE while N took him as a NSWIE. I... haven't seen it so I can't comment.
Edit on Halcon: Help me understand its psychology... you mention it gained the consciousness of what it ate and that's what made it grow arrogant. So... what is it like naturally? I'm not sure how the work plays it but is it inherently evil or is this mind just a mess produced thanks to what it's devoured, in which case it can't count.
Edited by 43110 on Feb 2nd 2021 at 9:02:16 AM
New EP:
This is another from Person of Interest. For the premise of the show, see page 9805 or 9809. This episode is called "Cura te Ipsum" (Latin for "You cure yourself") and follows Reese as he investigates a doctor named Megan Tillman (Linda Cardellini) who spends her nights clubbing. It turns out that the doctor has a lot more than going out on the town: revenge.
Who is the candidate and what does he do?
Andrew Benton (Adam Rothenburg) is an investment banker who also has a string of sexual harassment and stalking charges, but nothing proven. It's revealed that Benton is a Serial Rapist with Date Rape as his modus operandi, and offscreen he rapes an unlucky woman he meets in a bar; she shows up later in a rape support group. On top of that, he posts pictures of himself with the women he's raped on the internet, taunting them of the nights he had with them.
While in college, Benton had charges filed against him in a redacted report that was eventually dropped. This incident involved Gabrielle Tillman, Megan's sister. Out of shame for what Benton did to her, Gabrielle filed the report late and committed suicide a year later. So Megan intends to make him disappear: kill him and dissolve his body in lye. Reese causes Benton to crash his car and puts cocaine in his car, intending to have him locked up for drug possession, but Benton goes free because he hires the right lawyers.
When Megan attempts to kidnap and kill Benton, Reese hijacks the van and brings him to the hovel where she intended to do it. The two of them sit at a table as they contemplate good and bad people, with Benton trying to argue that Reese is a good man and that he'll change. Reese however believes that he won't, citing each of their past behavior (Reese is a killer, Benton is a rapist). Deciding that there are only good and bad choices, Reese draws his pistol and puts it on the table between the two of them, hoping that Benton will try to shoot him and Reese can kill him in self-defense. Benton however is too smart to do that, so the two sit, at a stalemate.
The episode ends there, and it's highly ambiguous what happens to Benton. The most common suggestion is that Reese framed him for drug charges and put him in a Hellhole Prison in Mexico, the place where Reese presumably put the man who killed Reese's fiancé.
Mitigating Circumstances?
As far as redeeming qualities, none. He's perfectly content to make Hell for any woman he chooses to and Reese is completely unsure of what to do with him; leave him alive, he'll find another way to continue his raping spree. Kill him, that'll be another mark on Reese's soul. Reese even puts a gun on the table hoping that Benton will be stupid enough to grab the gun so Reese can kill him.
Heinousness? This has come up in the past, but I think he fits since he's the only rapist encountered with any focus or depth in the entire show and of a different breed of criminal than what is typically encountered in the show's run.
Verdict?
Keep, as the only rapist in the show's run.
Edited by k410ren on Sep 3rd 2021 at 9:08:26 AM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and killsStill holding off until I hear before I actually vote but do we know if there was anything in terms of personality pre-consumption? If not that means its evil is a result of external factors.
@ k4, Sounds bad but approx. how many victims are stated or implied? I just see Megan's sister and one from his college days, though you also seemed to reference more.
Edited by 43110 on Feb 2nd 2021 at 9:32:09 AM
Halcon's psychology concerning the people it eats and assimilates is not clarified, and it's never stated if the knowledge it obtains is affecting its agency. There is no information about its personality or motives when it was born. When the party meets the assimilated Themis, she states she still wants to protect the Altillians and that the ritual is necessary for their survival, which is probably true of the original Themis. After the battle, Halcon declares its intent to eat Altilliah, which means Themis's will did not affect it, nor did the will of previous Apostles affect it.
Quote from game: "And then, when the grip is tight enough, we can finally drain the life energy, the memories, and the feelings of that star to extend our life once more."
One from the present episode, Gabrielle Tillman, and at least two or three more in pictures gleaned from Benton's computer. That's four or five at least.
I can't believe I'm quantifying rapes... :(
Edited by k410ren on Jul 27th 2022 at 3:14:23 PM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills![]()
I thought of it more like trying to get Reese not to kill him.
I'm gonna say again... how do you know what's naturally "Halcon". The being that still tried to be evil is still an amalgamation of all the minds it consumed and as the EP itself stated, it's that collective of minds that grew haughty and arrogant, I just see no evidence of a being beyond the mass of different psyches it's taken in.

Edited by Michealthehero21 on Feb 2nd 2021 at 4:00:37 AM