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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#24551: Apr 23rd 2014 at 7:46:51 PM

Unless the book factors into the film, I don't care about it. Not even a little.

Any more thoughts on Bejo?

Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#24552: Apr 23rd 2014 at 8:08:13 PM

We only really wait for proper serial works like comic books, manga or TV shows, unless there are special circumstances that makes a judgement call impossible to make. He's already had two movies, if he counts in both then it's unlikely the books will reveal anything that would stick through the movies.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#24553: Apr 23rd 2014 at 8:15:09 PM

I'm now wondering if we should consider the Avengers Arena version of Arcade for the list after the horrific shit he pulled..

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#24554: Apr 23rd 2014 at 8:21:04 PM

He died this week, yes? So I guess we can discuss him. As I recall there were reservations before based on how silly he was prior to Arena's reinvention of him, and whether winning once abrogates his former status as a silly failure.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#24555: Apr 23rd 2014 at 8:41:57 PM

I find his status as a 'failure' overblown...Arcade's never really had redeeming qualities. The important thing about him was, when he appeared, he was always an entertaining and inventive threat who was more focused on having fun than anything else.

Avengers Arena retroactively makes him a joke in the villain community so he can become a top dog through his powers. His actions in the series are...utterly horrific and rather uniquely vile. I mean, besides Donald Pierce, who's targeted the junior heroes to such an extent?

He doesn't get a chance to move on to much else due to terminal case of death, but he clearly wants to...after his island stunt, he's just stumped how to top it.

On reflection, I don't think it's much different than how Brian Michael Bendis reimagined The Purple Man for Alias...who was also an utter joke before that.

edited 23rd Apr '14 8:43:14 PM by Lightysnake

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#24556: Apr 23rd 2014 at 8:44:00 PM

I think that given how silly Arcade has been in the past we should be very cautious. This isn't like Arnim Zola, who was already a dead serious villain with a long list of crimes behind him, and whose only real issue was that his boss was worse (if Zola were a Spider-Man villain, he'd have been on the list a long time ago). This is a case of an absolute doofus (a murderous one, but one nonetheless) upgrading his act enough to be a real threat, and I can't help but wonder if we should wait and see if his characterisation sticks.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#24557: Apr 23rd 2014 at 8:46:22 PM

And The Purple Man? The guy's biggest claim to fame before Alias was being Doom's bitch in Emperor Doom. Before and since, he wasn't a glowing example of competence and seriousness either.

Also, it's a moot point if his characterization sticks: he's dead. Flatly dead. Blasted into a skeleton dead.

I think we should specify Arcade for Arena at least. I mean, yeah, Arcade was...amusing, but he was usually seen as a threat.

edited 23rd Apr '14 8:47:51 PM by Lightysnake

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#24558: Apr 23rd 2014 at 8:53:49 PM

[up]I haven't read much with the Purple Man, but all the Daredevil stuff since Alias has retconned him into being an absolute bastard in the past. Whereas in the original sixties comics he kidnapped Karen to use as a hostage, recent flashbacks and origin stories (like "Yellow", and I believe, "Daredevil: Season One") retcon him into an attempted rapist, and a killer. I'd argue that's evidence of a significant shift in terms of how he's viewed. Arcade hasn't been through a similar shift yet.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#24559: Apr 23rd 2014 at 9:05:55 PM

Well, he's always been lacking utterly in redeeming qualities. His whole MO is 'put people in horrible death traps for kicks and cash.' He just upped the ante when it stopped being 'fun'...the Purple Man started off serious, but for a time, the character was pretty much a joke and got walked on...a lot. He's also barely been used since Alias (For understandable reasons, as implications on him running loose are...disturbing otherwise.)

I also stress, Arcade's storyline has come to a most definite end, so we can just Avengers Arena on its own, at least.

Can we limit any entry to just Dennis Hopeless's Avengers Arena and Avengers Undercover runs? They're likely to be the last time we see Arcade for a very long time. If ever.

edited 23rd Apr '14 9:06:30 PM by Lightysnake

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#24560: Apr 23rd 2014 at 9:19:17 PM

[up]The fact that he's dead would normally be a good argument but this is comic books we're talking about. The only people who stay dead are Uncle Ben and Mr. and Mrs. Wayne.

edited 23rd Apr '14 9:19:45 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#24561: Apr 23rd 2014 at 9:22:00 PM

It took years for Thanos of all people to return. C-listers can and do remain dead, often for long stretches. For right now, though, we should treat his story as ended for the purposes of this specific story.

Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#24562: Apr 23rd 2014 at 9:32:03 PM

Didn't he only just die? I'd give it to the end of the next arc in case he pulled an "actually a doombot" gambit.

CorrTerek The Permanently Confused from The Bland Line Since: Jul, 2009
The Permanently Confused
#24563: Apr 23rd 2014 at 9:32:46 PM

That's my take on it. Let's be sure he's really dead and gone first.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#24564: Apr 23rd 2014 at 9:36:36 PM

that's reasonable. My hesitance is because this series is now being billed as Zemo, Hellstrom and Madam Masque's story, and Arcade's powers were utterly shut off, leaving him no way out of it

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#24565: Apr 23rd 2014 at 9:55:19 PM

I also agree on waiting for the arc to end first.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#24566: Apr 23rd 2014 at 11:45:12 PM

I wouldn't have an issue with Arcade expect for one: Does he meassure up with Mojo? He has always set the standarts for cruel entertainment, the only reason why he isn't on the list is because he is too damn laughable, but he still has done some seriously fucked up things just for entertainment.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#24567: Apr 24th 2014 at 12:01:17 AM

  • OE: True about images needing to show heinous actions; as for being the first person, well, Zsasz probably isn't the first person people think of for DC villains (hello Joker), or Durge for Star Wars (hey Palpatine).
  • Good image for Unicron.
  • [tup] Bejo
  • What did Arena!Arcade do? As for Mojo, is/was he Laughably Evil, or Played for Laughs?

[nja]Less than 5.5 hours for Trunchbull, Carnage, and Jake Roberts images...

[nja]Gorgon possible image for X-Men villains?

edited 24th Apr '14 3:57:27 AM by ACW

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#24568: Apr 24th 2014 at 4:23:00 AM

The two prequel nove;s are going to be set long before the events of the wolf creek films. One will be focused on his childhood, and the other on his tie in the Vietnam war. I have no idea when they are being released. It could take years. not every Start of Darkness story makes the villain sympathetic though. I suppose it does not really matter though because even if we were to count the novels as canon, I do not believe any Freudian Excuse could be powerful enough. He tortured, raped, and killed dozens of people including a little girl, and kept them around for a long time going by his comments on his last female victim in the first film, and the woman in the second film. Not to mention the way he offed his victims. Those people did nothing to him so even if he had one of the most tragic pasts possible, nothing could justify taking it out on innocints.

jjj
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#24569: Apr 24th 2014 at 4:36:30 AM

Yeah, Arcade measures up to Mojo, especially given his relative lack of resources. Mojo rules an entire dimension, after all.

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#24570: Apr 24th 2014 at 5:22:24 AM

@24579: It's not just that Trunchbull isn't notable enough, it's also that the action itself looks a bit silly. I mean, I see that image of a girl about to be thrown by her hair and I laugh. It just doesn't seem to stack up to other images for Complete Monster, like the ones on Film, Anime, or, hell, even on the Disney subpages.

Also, there's really no need to push the issue so quickly. I'm sure other people would like more time to comment.

edited 24th Apr '14 5:26:03 AM by OccasionalExister

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#24571: Apr 24th 2014 at 5:38:26 AM

ACW, this kinda needs to stop. You keep trying to decide things yourself and give very little time to discuss it. It's the same issue taking new forms here. This whole "request incoming in 24 hours" when nobody has commented, particularly on things some of us don't consider high priority like Image Picking, is a bit detrimental.

CorrTerek The Permanently Confused from The Bland Line Since: Jul, 2009
The Permanently Confused
#24573: Apr 24th 2014 at 5:58:38 AM

Doesn't more than one person need to agree to start the voting or whatever first?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#24574: Apr 24th 2014 at 6:12:37 AM

Well, I'll let it languish in https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/conversations.php?topic=images.
[nja][up]X6 "(N)ot every Start of Darkness story makes the villain sympathetic though."
Xykon and Palpatine say hello.

Back to Arena!Arcade, what are his actions? And Mojo seems Laughably Evil but utterly heinous (Joker anyone?). I was gonna ask about regular!Arcade but seems he's a Fair-Play Villain and not as bad as Fabian, Pierce et al.

edited 24th Apr '14 7:14:31 AM by ACW

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love

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