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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#24377: Apr 19th 2014 at 12:40:46 PM

@24366 & 24378: Write-ups look good to me, though I do have a question about Nizam. Should it be mentioned that by using the Sands of Time he risks destroying the world and doesn't care? I'd also be alright with the Commandant being cut.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#24378: Apr 19th 2014 at 12:43:01 PM

I did put he doesn't care about the horrors he could potentially unleash which might cover that

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#24379: Apr 19th 2014 at 12:43:14 PM

My main issue with Lubikka is "One of these attacks took the lives of the parents of Tytti Noorbuck, and this wasn't the first atrocity Lubikka had committed." Well, what are the others? If they were Offscreen Villainy, we can probably get rid of that second part.

KyleJacobs from DC - Southern efficiency, Northern charm Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#24380: Apr 19th 2014 at 12:49:17 PM

Azar Javed needs clarification that he's from The Witcher.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#24381: Apr 19th 2014 at 12:52:11 PM

he's going on a subpage, so it's not really necessary

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#24382: Apr 19th 2014 at 12:58:32 PM

@24390: Ah, sorry, missed that bit. Nevermind then.

Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#24383: Apr 19th 2014 at 5:15:50 PM

Okay, I need to back this conversation up. Was there a vote to cutlist the Metal Gear subpage? Because that had enough entries to justify a subpage but ACW had it cutlisted and with the reason that it was merged and I don't recall that ever coming up.

Even if it did, ACW fucked up big time; the link to the subpage is still there and the examples don't exist on the main pages, so perfectly valid examples are now off the trope list. ACW, what the fuck are you doing?

edited 19th Apr '14 5:22:06 PM by Shaoken

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#24385: Apr 19th 2014 at 5:44:05 PM

[up]Which is useful only to members of this thread. Any normal troper who is reading the page is going to click on Dragon Quest, Elder Scrolls or Metal Gear and get taken to an error page because ACW jumped the gun and cutlisted those subpages before the sandbox was ready.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#24387: Apr 19th 2014 at 6:12:10 PM

They weren't as far as I can tell. Especially since for the elder scrolls we included a link from the franchise page and all up we lost around 30 or more inbounds.

So can anyone tell me if there was any agreement to start axing subpages and merging them with the main page? Because the three axed pages (Elder Scrolls, Dragon Quest and Metal Gear) all met our criteria to keep a subpage and I can't see any discussion on changing that.

edited 19th Apr '14 6:17:50 PM by Shaoken

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#24388: Apr 19th 2014 at 6:16:36 PM

Alright, let's very quickly replace them from the Sandbox and get this cleared up ASAP

Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#24389: Apr 19th 2014 at 6:27:18 PM

I suppose the real question is are we merging subpages with the main page? Because looking at the sandbox as it is now we only have about 100,000 characters left before we start hitting the point where the page breaks (if I'm remembering it right). As far as I can tell we've never reached any decision to cut down on subpages since we made the "three at a minimum" requirement.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#24390: Apr 19th 2014 at 6:28:19 PM

To my knowledge...no, we didn't say to cut or merge any of them

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#24391: Apr 19th 2014 at 6:34:33 PM

I think I might know a possible cause of the confusion. When we said we didn't need a page for Heralds Of Valdemar, despite it having four entries that might have caused some confusion.

edited 19th Apr '14 6:34:45 PM by TVRulezAgain

Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#24392: Apr 19th 2014 at 6:44:30 PM

So should I request that the deleted subpages be undeleted?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#24393: Apr 19th 2014 at 6:46:59 PM

Yeah, I think so. Let's just give ACW a talking to and a 'don't do it again'...he's useful enough.

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#24394: Apr 19th 2014 at 6:52:27 PM

Maybe say to consult the thread before creating OR cutting a subpage.

Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#24395: Apr 19th 2014 at 6:52:38 PM

That's what makes this so disappointing, they really should know better.

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#24396: Apr 19th 2014 at 7:06:00 PM

When this is settled and those subpages are back up, I have 3 subpage proposals.

edited 19th Apr '14 7:06:15 PM by TVRulezAgain

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#24398: Apr 19th 2014 at 7:30:07 PM

OK..

  • Since it came up, should we keep Monster.Heralds Of Valdemar?

  • There is a sandbox for The Witcher. I don't know if the entries are up to date, but it has a section for both Literature and Video Games. Which begs the question, should the Lit entries for The Witcher be moved to Monster.The Witcher?

  • I was wondering if there should be a James Bond page. There are 7 entries and it's a long running franchise, plus it could save us some space on the Film page.

edited 19th Apr '14 7:30:28 PM by TVRulezAgain

Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#24399: Apr 19th 2014 at 7:33:51 PM

While we're discussing subpages, I want to put forward a motion to dissolve the Bioware and Blizzard subpages. Subpages should be grouped by work, not by the company that makes the games. The only comparable situation on here is how we split up very large pages into small subpages based on Publisher, but those are still very large subpages while both Bioware and Blizzard only have a handful of monsters each.

edited 19th Apr '14 7:35:55 PM by Shaoken

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#24400: Apr 19th 2014 at 7:37:07 PM

Well, there are pages for works by Stephen King and Jim Butcher.

Also, wouldn't Disney be a page for a company's works?

And as you noted, the VG page is getting closer to the character limit so it can't hurt to have extra subpages.

edited 19th Apr '14 7:48:53 PM by TVRulezAgain


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