During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Niragi.
I also found this in the Edit History
for YMMV.Senki Zesshou Symphogear:
- Carol Malus Dienheim, despite never being seen as such by the protagonists or even the creators, arguably fits the bill. Her goal is literally to destroy the world and genocide all of humanity, and she pursues it relentlessly, gladly sacrificing her own memories to achieve it. The lyrics of her song Senkin Daurdabla have to be read to be believed. She actively refuses redemption or forgiveness despite Elfnein and Hibiki both offering it repeatedly, and even when finding out her father's dying wish was really to forgive, she still refuses to give up. Unlike Fine or Ver, who appeared to have some kind of change of heart in their dying moments, Carol, while falling to her death, simply sneers that Hibiki's songs can't save her (of course, she is saved anyway). In the end, it literally took virtually all of her memories being wiped out for her to stop being evil.
Edited by MalleoWeegee on Jan 11th 2021 at 6:15:30 AM
"I SHALL UNIFY THE WORLD! FROM ALPHA TO OMEGA... BOW DOWN TO ME!!!"![]()
Yes. Crossover with the two tropes can happen. It’s not often though.
Hans Gruber is probably the crème de la crème of crossovers.
For that reason, I’m usually weary of them admittedly because CM usually requires a special kind of cruelty while MB definitely doesn’t.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jan 11th 2021 at 7:28:50 AM
I'm not going to talk too much on it because it's tangential to the thread and the intense "interest" shall we say in CM-MB crossovers is far too intense for my liking but here's the thing to remember: at the end of the day a Magnificent Bastard is Magnificent first and foremost. The Bastard bit has quite a bit of variance and of course by virtue of being a Complete Monster a character is automatically also a Bastard. The balancing act comes in when you remember the character still has to be Magnificent first, so even the likes of charismatic monsters like Palpatine or DCAU!Darkseid still flunk on the basis of being Bastards to the point it eclipses their magnificence. If you get a rare case (I'm serious, there are 41 of them) where they're still coming across as cool, brilliant, adaptable and charming before being a Bastard, then yes, there's room for a character to be both. That all again comes with the addendum that such characters have proven troublesome, with tropers trying to downplay the crimes of a CM or embellish on those of an MB to "create" one and it's caused nothing but trouble. If you're confident in one, go for it but please, approach it fully informed and quite sure of what you're doing.
I found a CM entry for Adagio Dazzle from Equestria Girls: A Fairly Odd Friendship And I'm not sure if it's approved or not.
This one is long overdue. Should've finished writing it in September but procrastination is a bitch.
What's the work?
Overpowered 2020
is a 2020 rewrite and sequel (it basically rewrites all the original's chapters, adds whole new plot elements in the rewrite part and follows with a sequel part following these elements as well as new plot points) of the 2010 Code Lyoko : Overpowered fanfic written by Nelbsia. You've heard about it before because I effortposted X.A.N.A. in the original fanfic. In that rewrite (who also got a sequel we're also dealing with)? Nah, X.A.N.A. doesn't keep, it's even worse than it's original fanfic counterpart but is given moral agency issues so brutal it's hard to even include him in the heinous standard and even pulls a Hazy-Feel Turn.
Our candidate, unique to the 2020 rewrite/sequel, is even more surprising...
(see 2010!X.A.N.A.'s EP for more detailed information
)
Who's Zander Hopper? What has he done?
Basically, Zander (born in 1903) is the leader of the Black Phénix organization and Anthéa's father. This makes him Aélita's grandfather. Taelia being Aélita's long lost sis in this fanfic, she is Zander's granddaughter as well. And should've been dead long ago due to old age if it wasn't for him being virtualized in the Next World, Black Phénix's virtual world.
He experimented on Anthéa and her twin sister Athéna ever since they were conceived with his wife Aurore. This led to Athéna's death shortly after her birth. Aurore discovered what her husband had done and castrated him before he could father other twins to experiment on. In response, Zander executed her. To continue his twisted experiments, he had to wait until Anthéa reached adult age, married and had children (BTW, had Athéna survived, Zander would've continued to experiment on her and Anthéa before killing them once they outlived their usefulness). When it happened? Here we go again.
He also experimented on his own granddaughters ever since they were babies (not only them but also many, many other human lab rats ; BTW, Zander is openly inspired by Joseph Mengele. Yeah, that says it all) to try and achieve eternal youth so that he can finally come back to Earth in a youthful and immortal body. This led to Franz and Anthéa fleeing the Black Phénix with their daughters, fully aware they wouldn't survive Zander's experiments should they stay. This set off the events of the canon series. Zander also created younger clones of himself to later possess when he comes back on Earth. Alexandre, one of the newest Lyoko-warriors recruits is one of these clones. Yeah, all clones are sapient and none of them are happy about their potential fate, not that Zander cares. Shit's horrific enough Alexandre would rather jump in the Digital Sea than becoming Zander's host. Not to mention all clones not named Alexandre ultimately died after a few years of life.
Due to a failed kidnapping attempt on the original Lyoko-warriors, they end up disappearing. Hence why Franz Hopper created a new team of recruits. Upon investigating the Next World, they are captured and Zander forces Franz to help him track down the original Lyoko-warriors, with Zander promising to free the new recruits in return. Having learned of Lyoko's existence (which is why he found Franz and the original Lyoko warriors' position in the first place) thanks to the (now Ret-Gone) Bad Future Lyoko-warriors' message sent through time (when they were still dealing with X.A.N.A. in the rewrite part of the fanfic), they abduct the future Lyoko-warriors as well. To obtain further information about Lyoko, Zander painfully forces the future Lyoko-warriors to get back their memories of the Bad Future, with all the trauma that comes with it. Given that Franz hid the Xénoformeur (a device Zander needs for his world domination plans), Zander threatens to kill one by one the future Lyoko-warriors if Franz doesn't tell him it's location and doesn't cooperate with him. Most Bad Future Lyoko-warriors are at this point innocent pre-teens turned into traumatized victims of the Bad Future. Later on successfully capturing the original Lyoko-warriors, Zander interrogates all his hostages, showing little hesitation in torturing them if necessary (and enjoying it) as well as giving them death threats (irrelevant of their age) he's more than capable of backing up. Zander's pettiness is also shown when Jérémie flat-out says that the X.A.N.A. is far more of a threat (when it comes to sheer power, resources and cunning) than Zander could ever dream of, leading to Zander nearly killing him before keeping him alive to interrogate furthermore.
When the new Lyoko-warriors recruits free the hostages with a sneak attack, Zander send his War Heaven Army (basically a bunch of super-soldiers) against them (including a brainwashed Naxxya), said army proceeding to curb-stomp the heroes. He then forces Naxxya to fight her friend Samantha to the death. When Naxxya is freed from her brainwashing and fuses with the War Heaven Army (having talked them into pulling a Heel–Face Turn), Zander brainwash her again and orders her to kill all the heroes (with the obvious exceptions of Aélita and Taelia). When she's freed again, Zander sics his Dragon Carthage/Hélène Lhorion (Sissi's Missing Mom) on the heroes. When she ultimately pulls a Heel–Face Turn as well, Zander powers up using the late X.A.N.A.'s powers to... (Drumroll) Kill all the heroes himself! X.A.N.A.'s power drives him mad enough to nearly destroy all of the Next World and everyone in it. He's ultimately defeated and devirtualized, as old age finish him off in the real world.
Any mitigating factors?
No redeeming qualities whatsoever. He's Faux Affably Evil incarnate and his motives are no more than Immortality Immorality and Take Over the World. He has just one Pet the Dog moment where he agrees to bury Howard's wife in a more dignified place after the CIA killed her, but it was only so that he could sweet-talk Howard into working for him. When he's defeated and begging for his life, he claims to have good intentions to try and justify his actions but both the heroes and the narrative make it clear he's a Not-So-Well-Intentioned Extremist.
Heinousness? A non-issue. The only domain in which X.A.N.A. surpasses Zander is the bodycount, and a major reason is that's it's been established that X.A.N.A. is leagues above Zander in terms of sheer power (heck, when the revived X.A.N.A. comes back, he only becomes worse in some aspects - such as Your Soul Is Mine! - because he literally stole Zander's resources and power). The rest (sadism, personal villainy, uniqueness, etc...)? Zander is worse in all those areas.
Personal Villainy : X.A.N.A. forcing Jérémie to watch as it kills Aélita? Cute. Compare that with Zander going Mengele on his own family. He experimented on his wife, leading her to forcibly giving birth to twins. He experimented on his two daughters (leading to one of them's death in infancy). He experimented on his granddaughters ever since their birth and planned to continue before smoking them once they were no more useful. That's Shou Tucker on steroids.
Sadism : X.A.N.A. did painfully torture Franz Hopper and his canon crimes were notorious for their sadism. Zander engaged in torture and attempted murders of pre-teens as well for several chapters and added Your Soul Is Mine! to the mix! Anyone stabbed by his scythe is permanently sealed inside it and used as fuel.
Uniqueness : To that, Zander added Bad Boss (tortured by electricity one of his creations Naxxya after she accidentally blurted out her origins during a trial), Abusive Parents (experimented on Anthéa and Athéna), Evilutionary Biologist, Grand Theft Me (planned to use Alexandre's body as a youthful, permanent and immortal host), Mind Rape and Immortality Immorality.
Verdict ?
You sure don't wanna see his name on your family tree.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Jan 12th 2021 at 11:29:23 AM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
