TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Go To

During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#243326: Jan 9th 2021 at 6:17:55 AM

[tup] to Grimmel the Grisly, Saruman and Jango.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#243327: Jan 9th 2021 at 6:44:57 AM

[tup]Dr. Jango

[tup]Saruman

[tup] Grimmel the Grisly

Watch me destroying my country
Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013
#243328: Jan 9th 2021 at 7:36:38 AM

I finished Gargoyles (wich is great btw). Would it be nice to expand Jackal write up a bit to include his attempt to massacre the Mayan clan or frame Broadway for terrorism to inspire the anti gargoyles movement?

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#243329: Jan 9th 2021 at 7:43:14 AM

Edit: Whoops misread.

Edited by 43110 on Jan 9th 2021 at 10:43:27 AM

ChrisX ..... from ..... Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Singularity
.....
#243330: Jan 9th 2021 at 7:47:52 AM

I think I could try for a writeup on Dr. Jango before I retire myself to bed. Let's see now...

  • The Brave Fighter of Sun Fighbird: Dr. Jango is a completely human Mad Scientist and rival to Professor Hiroshi Amano with unhealthy obsession towards evil and the ambition to rule over other humans and making them suffer to prove his superiority. Not content with just stealing Amano's works, modifying them for evil purposes and using them for destructive pettiness, he willingly partnered with Draias and complicitly enabling all of Draias' evil acts with a glee and having Draias enable his evil acts, trampling against fellow humans and delighting in their suffering and would try to usurp Draias as the leader of evil if opportunity presented itself. Absolutely shameless, lacking excuses about his atrocities against his own kin and only concerned of having him stand on the top of everyone else, Dr. Jango is a stand-out example of a thoroughly despicable human being within the whole Brave Series .

Though not sure about the link on Humans Are Bastards, because Jango is the sole EVIL human being in a setting where Humans Are Good. If it doesn't fit, I'll just remove the pothole.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#243333: Jan 9th 2021 at 8:04:41 AM

I feel like there SHOULD be a trope. Humans Are Bastards doesn't apply; Humans Are the Real Monsters doesn't seem to work since Jango's the ONLY human monster...

BTW, the Dino Geist trimming fine with everyone?

DrNoPuma Streaky from the land of Humorous Hyenas (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: Married to the music
#243334: Jan 9th 2021 at 8:17:41 AM

[tup] to Dino Geist.

I have one I want to write, but the character is a twist villain. Should I use spoiler marks in my writeup? I don't have much experience writing these.

Edited by DrNoPuma on Jan 9th 2021 at 11:17:56 AM

Very good kitty
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#243335: Jan 9th 2021 at 8:20:06 AM

Hi man.

Nah the thread is spoilers free in eps.

Just put a spoiler warning at the top of the ep for anyone and the entry itself assuming it's approved can get spoiled on the requisite ymmv page.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#243336: Jan 9th 2021 at 8:26:18 AM

[up][up][up] Yes to the Dino Geist rewrite; isn't a character that's designed to be hated in a group of likable characters the Hate Sink?

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#243337: Jan 9th 2021 at 8:32:54 AM

Okay thinking it over. I want to get some stuff off of my to do list. And decide that this was more of a hiatus then goodbye, but I still will be gone for a bit. Sorry if that last post now seems like it was wasting you're time.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#243338: Jan 9th 2021 at 8:35:40 AM

Oh, also, please add Jango to the Drafts.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#243339: Jan 9th 2021 at 8:49:21 AM

To ACW.

We have a lot of Humans Are the Real Monsters potholes for individual human villains tho.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Jan 9th 2021 at 11:49:31 AM

Watch me destroying my country
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#243340: Jan 9th 2021 at 9:11:35 AM

Was under the impression Humans Are the Real Monsters didn't require all humans in the setting be evil, just that the character it's being applied to be seen as a monster in the eyes on non-humans, like Rice and Pierce in Logan.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#243341: Jan 9th 2021 at 9:14:29 AM

Okay now I think I’ve got another candidate from one of my favourite shows final season.

Now I’ve spoken in the past about Blindspot, but to give a quick refresher the series focuses on FBI team who’s following investigating a bag dumped in time square containing a young woman with no memory are thrown into a world of conspiracy and corruption. It is overall one of my favourite shows and would definitely recommend watching it to anyone interested in conspiracy action-thrillers.

Now following the previous season The Team were framed for a terrorist attack and forced to go on the run. Thus it’s up to them to clear their names and also stop the callous and ambitious Madeline Burke, who thanks to a combination of wealth, political connections, corruption and blackmail has taken over the FBI, from completely her dominion of America.

Now whilst Madeline is the most personally vicious Big Bad in entire the show (which is itself a pretty high bar I can tell you) unfortunately she doesn’t count due to loving her family.

However, the final season also introduces a secondary antagonist who is another story altogether.

So without further ado let me introduce you to Ivy Sands.

Who Is She:

Officially Ivy is just the icy, and somewhat sadistic head of a group of Private Military Contractors that Madeline hires to lead the search for the team, following the official channels within the FBI’s failing to find them.

However, the reality is far worse. Ivy is in fact a senior member of the Dabbur Zhan, a multinational terrorist group with no clear goals beyond destabilising Western governments and killing a lot of people, who has formed an alliance with Madeline agreeing to work with her in exchange for Madeline using her vast connections and resources to enable Ivy’s agenda.

What Does He Do:

Now being fair the Dabbur Zhan is a recurring threat throughout the entire show responsible for a variety of crimes. However, it’s never confirmed if Ivy had anything to do with their previous attacks or if she’s the organisations new leader, or just a branch commander. As such I’m restricting this to talking about the things we know Ivy is responsible for.

Needing to capture the team as they are the last loose end standing in the way of her plans, Madeline approaches Ivy. In exchange for Ivy tracking them down, Madeline promises to produce chemical weapons for her to use in her attacks.

In particular planning to turn ZIP (an inverse compound that exposure to even in small quantities will wipe out a person’s entire memory causing effectively Death of Personality and if left untreated will slowly kill them by causing their mind to degrade, and in large one’s its simply lethal) into a weapon, having a large amount manufactured for multiple attacks.

Wanting more power and planning to fulfil her late father’s ambitious, Madeline intends to take over America. Thus she’s courting the recently vacant position of Vice-president, then when the attacks occur Madeline would kill the president and use them as an excuse to declare martial law and gain absolute power. A plan Ivy is happy to assist with provided she gets her weapons.

Bringing Ivy and her terrorists into the FBI’s building to utilise their resources in the hunt for the team. After they are set up, Madeline takes Ivy to show her the mark of her word. She’s had a prototype version of a special device designed to vastly disperse aerosols built which when activated agonisingly kills the poor guy trapped in the room it.

Arriving in France to follow the Teams last known activity where they managed to break Rich Dotcom out of a CIA black site, Ivy determines that the Team must have gotten the schematics from somewhere and that is their first step. Using her contacts she manages to find out it was the eccentric crime boss Shohid Akhtar. Tracking him down to his secret base in Germany, Ivy and her men killed her guards and then interrogated Shohid. Discovering he didn’t know anything, she shot him through the head and cut off his arm, to let team know his death was in the pursuit of them.

Ivy also sent out several of her men as part of Madeline’s plan to bomb the World Collaboration Summit, planning to use it to kill her loudest critic and greatest rival for the position as Vice-President Susan Sahn. Thankfully Kurt Weller and Patterson are able to disable the bomb in time.

Madeline is furious at the failure, but Ivy is unimpressed telling her that their alliance was to capture the team, if Madeline wants to keep using Ivy’s men for other projects then they need to renegotiate their arrangement. She then tells Madeline to ensure she gets her best men out, claiming its hunt the team. When Madeline points out these are terrorists in secure facilities who she can’t just let out. Ivy replies just order a transfer and she’ll do the rest.

She also captures Agent Brianna whilst trying to upload all the information Rich managed to gather before being handed over to the CIA and hands her to Madeline (who kills her).

Attacking the transfer Ivy manages to break several of her best soldiers out, and has them meet with several of her men at warehouse in Dresden Germany. Having used Madeline’s resources and Doctor Kelly Coleman, Ivy has prepared a series of gas bombs with it being her plan for her men to detonate them in ten European capital cities, intending to throw the entire continent into chaos and killing as many people as she possibly can.

Arriving on the scene to personally supervise, Ivy is happy to discover from Doctor Coleman that the attacks will be ready to go ahead in 24 hours, but quickly grows impatient.

Thankfully the team manage to uncover her plans and attacks the base before they can transport the gas.

The plan is foiled, but in the process Ivy and her men manage to capture Kurt. Sending most of her men ahead to carry on the plan, Ivy makes it clear their carrying on regardless of their first set of attacks being thwarted, and turns her attention to Kurt, personally intending to force him to tell her where the others are so she can deliver them to Madeline.

Going over her tools Ivy considers torturing Kurt, but decides that as their both professionals to skip the theatrics. Instead she injects him with a specially devised series of drugs, designed to introduce nightmarish hallucinations and mood swings, intending to break him down until he talks. The entire experience shakes Kurt to his core, along with Ivy’s threats towards his daughter.

However, Kurt manages to regain his lucidity at the end and lies that during the interrogation the others will have scattered, so now he’s completely useless to her, asking what she thinks Madeline will do when she finds out she blew her chance. Enraged Ivy kicks his chair over and tries to shoot him, however, taking advantage of her damaging his restraints, Kurt breaks free and knocks Ivy unconscious.

Shaken however, but visions suggesting he’s no different to his father (who murdered his childhood best friend when they were both 12) Kurt can’t bring himself to kill Ivy. Awakening a while later, Ivy has the meeting covered up, and instead doubles down on her efforts to find Kurt’s ex-girlfriend Allison Knight and his four year old daughter Bethany.

As a US Marshal Ally had managed to go to ground, but eventually Ivy managed to find her (but not Bethany) and delivered her to Madeline. She also tracked down the Team’s other ally CIA former deputy director Jake Keaton.

Madeline’s Zip finally having finished production, Ivy sent several of her men to pick it up on half (Madeline using her own son, a member of doctor without borders, to unwittingly smuggle it into the country) whilst leading a detachment to collect the half personally. Their plans nearing fruition, but still needing the team, Ivy attempted to torture Keaton for information. But her efforts got her nowhere until Madeline instead threatened to kill his daughter. Using a special puzzle to trick the team into revealing their location, Ivy and her men attacked the bunker they were using as a base, managing to capture them all save Patterson who seemingly died during the attack.

Back in America Ivy advocated letting her simply kill all the team, however, Madeline refused wanting to make this appear legal to avoid any more unnecessary questions, planning to force one member of the team to confess to the crimes and hand them over to the CIA thus ensuring the rest would go to regular maximum security prison.

A little later upon checking with her men, Ivy was furious to discover that her weapons hadn’t arrived and confronted Madeline. Madeline assured her the Zip and the bombs were ready for use, but there were being kept in a secure location which she would reveal to her in all due time, just in case Ivy got any ideas about launching the attacks before Madeline was ready to use them to her advantage.

However, problems began to emerge. Patterson (who survived thanks to the bunker having a secret escape tunnel) and Boston Arliss Crab (Forger, Cybercriminal and Rich’s on and off again boyfriend) managed to get into the building, and along with the remaining allies free the others, then publish a series of files proving Madeline was responsible for everything, including her dealings with terrorists.

Realising it was coming apart, Ivy ordered her men to recapture then kill the Team and scarpered. Her men succeeded in capturing them, but their efforts were defeated by Director Matthew Weitz finally picking a side and rallying the rest of FBI agents to drive out the terrorists (Weitz dying in the gun battle).

Exposed and about to be captured Madeline opted to commit suicide rather than face imprisonment.

Ivy meanwhile managed to meet up with her remaining men in America, where she was contacted by Madeline’s slimily lawyer Richard Shirley who realising the way the wind was blowing had sold her out and was planning to throw in with Ivy. He revealed Madeline was dead and he had the access code to Madeline’s online accounts showing where the chemical weapons where. However, no longer needing him, Ivy executed him on the spot.

Contacting the unstable genius and cybercriminal Kathy Gustofson to use the code to find the relevant information. However, suspecting Ivy would just kill her when she was done Kathy instead threw her efforts in with the FBI. Quickly figuring what she had done, Ivy instead had Boston kidnapped to access the files.

Deciding he wasn’t moving fast enough she threatened to kill him, when Boston pointed out that she wasn’t going to kill him before she got what she wanted Ivy conceded that was true, so cut off one of his fingers instead. Unable to stall any longer, Boston found the location of the warehouse where the 30 ZIP bombs were waiting.

Knowing the team would be hot on their trail, she left Boston trapped on a weight sensitive bomb hoping it would delay them long enough.

Finally having her chemical weapons Ivy contacted a local bomb maker having him develop a device to make the ZIP bombs even worse. Rather than simply releasing the gas, she instead intended to use explosives to disperse the chemical over a much wider area, drastically increasing the fallout.

Kurt, Jane and Tasha attacked her base with Ivy sending her last men to confront them. Stumbling onto them, Jane overheard Ivy’s plan to launch the first bomb in Time square intending to kill millions of people.

Overwhelmed, Ivy was forced to retreat managing to take only one of the bombs with her, but she set off another before she went hoping to wipe Jane’s memory of her plans. Following him and his men modifying it, but left with no other resources left, Ivy was forced to personally deliver the bomb to time square where she hid it in a trashcan. However, the team arrived in time. Spotting her trying to escape Tasha managed to knock Ivy unconscious and she was arrested.

Jane and Weller managed to disable the bomb saving the day, though the series leaves it ambiguous if the ZIP exposure killed Jane or not.

Any Freudian Excuse or Redeeming Traits:

Unusually for a major antagonist in the series nothing is given. In this show where just about every major antagonist is a Well-Intentioned Extremist (desiring either to end corruption, bring world peace or simply get revenge on the people who abused them) Ivy never shown any signs of having a larger ideology or agenda. The show never goes into her backstory, she has no meaningful relationships. At hear she honestly just wants to cause chaos.

Ivy likewise never shows any redeeming traits. She’s at best somewhat cordial when talking to her men, but she never reacts to them dying.

Heinous Standard:

Now as I previous said the series has a high standard. All the major antagonists in this series plan massive attacks that would have involved massive losses of life, and even a good number of the MOTW’s have plans that involve blowing up New York for some reason or other. There are a lot of terrorists in this show, during its run it pretty much managed to cover every type.

There is likewise Shepheard, the Big Bad of the first two seasons, who was also a terrorist mastermind with her overall plan being to set off a massive Dirty Bomb in Washington, irradiating massive amounts of the area and completely wiping the American government. However, she was the leader of a massive organisation composed of multiple ex-special forces members with plans going back years (she likewise doesn’t count as despite becoming incredibly callous and ruthless her intentions to end the corruptio are completely genuine).

However, Ivy’s plans go further than pretty much all of them, matching if not exceeding Shepherds. All of her plans involve attacks that would cause massive losses of life. It’s acknowledged that if she managed to successfully set off even her last attack then she would kill untold millions in the fallout, potentially wiping out the entire state.

Now Madeline does share a lot responsibility with Ivy (as well as having plenty of her crimes of her own, the woman is introduced poisoning the entire board of HCI Global to ensure she is the new CEO) however, Madeline has more resources to play with being the head of a massive business empire, as well as prominent figure in government and having blackmail information on a variety of powerful people.

Likewise whilst spending most of the season working for Madeline, Ivy makes it clear she's only hear to further her own agenda. She isn't even that interested to discover Madeline died beyond tracking down her chemical weapons.

Conclusion:

Overall I can’t see any reason Ivy shouldn’t count, even in a show with this many terrorists, her attacks still manage to stand out in sheer scale.

Still what do you think?

Edited by MGD107 on Jan 9th 2021 at 11:55:45 AM

WatTambor Since: Oct, 2020
#243342: Jan 9th 2021 at 9:28:06 AM

[tup] Ivy

Edited by WatTambor on Jan 9th 2021 at 9:32:58 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#243344: Jan 9th 2021 at 9:38:28 AM

[tup]ivy

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#243345: Jan 9th 2021 at 9:41:01 AM

[tup] Ivy.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#243346: Jan 9th 2021 at 9:46:11 AM

Eh, sure to Ivy.

Man, this makes me wonder about our current keepers. Maxwell Tate and Marjory Ellis seem fine as they're Human Traffickers, but Iris...she may fall victim to Criminal Minds Syndrome (hell, she'd probably count ON Criminal Minds, but it'd be close, and that show didn't have people trying to kill thousands, with maybe a few exceptions).

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#243347: Jan 9th 2021 at 9:55:38 AM

Yes to Saruman, Jango, and Ivy.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#243348: Jan 9th 2021 at 9:57:10 AM

Yea to Ivy.

Okay, for Cronal, I actually did address this a while ago: It's confirmed that Cronal's death in Shadows of Mindor and subsequent resurrection tore his mind apart, and we know that such things can have a sketchy impact on one's mental state and agency, indicating any hints at redemption (which are only in pretty obscure supplementary books and not prime sources) are the result of severely impacted agency, since it's 100 percent at odds with the Cronal/Blackhole we see after this, especially as by the end, he simply goes evil again in his final identity as Pelek.

In other words, it's kinda a Zouken Matou situation, where the supposed redeeming qualities are those of an entirely different person as the CM Cronal we know died in full on Mindor.

Edited by Lightysnake on Jan 9th 2021 at 9:58:30 AM

Tvtropesfan234 Since: Nov, 2019
#243349: Jan 9th 2021 at 10:02:26 AM

Can any object show villain count?

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#243350: Jan 9th 2021 at 10:03:17 AM

So it's like madder red where his mind has been fucked so much that he's a totally different guy.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

Total posts: 326,048
Top