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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Critica7 Self-Declared King of Everything from Smallville Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Self-Declared King of Everything
#243301: Jan 8th 2021 at 8:27:59 PM

[up] The story was never finished. We never found out what his final fate would have been.

[up][up] Qyburn's an awful guy, to be sure. Honestly, I guess it was just because I didn't think to do so. If you want, you can vote them both in instead of just Saruman.

Edited by Critica7 on Jan 8th 2021 at 8:30:19 AM

Check out my current fanfiction project.
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#243303: Jan 8th 2021 at 8:53:30 PM

[tup] Grimmel, Mary Lou and Saruman

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#243304: Jan 8th 2021 at 8:58:45 PM

Yes to Grimmel, Saurman and Mary Lou.

Here is my Chapman write up.

  • Dragent 1967: From the season 1 episode The Big Explosion, Donald Chapman is a Neo-Nazi who had many run-ins with the law due to his various hate crimes. When Chapman learns a local school is about to be racially integrated, Chapman steals a large supply of dynamite from a construction site. Chapman uses the dynamite to build a bomb and hides in the school, with the bomb wired to the school bells, to ensure it goes off when the children arrive. When detectives Joe Friday and Bill Gannon arrest Chapman, he stalls for time to prevent them from stopping his plan.

Edited by Overlord on Jan 8th 2021 at 8:59:27 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#243305: Jan 8th 2021 at 9:20:09 PM

Hmm... with no redeeming qualities I'll just ask for a list of all the deeds Qyburn engages in? It sounds like he's got a good shot from how you're hinting but I'd like to know what exactly I'm voting on.

Critica7 Self-Declared King of Everything from Smallville Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Self-Declared King of Everything
#243306: Jan 8th 2021 at 9:29:53 PM

[up] Just the experimenting mentioned in the EP. By his own admission, war is not his area of expertise. It's not as much as Saruman, but on the other hand he doesn't have as much in terms of resources, so he might be able to count.

Edited by Critica7 on Jan 8th 2021 at 9:32:07 AM

Check out my current fanfiction project.
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#243307: Jan 8th 2021 at 9:45:58 PM

If that's literally all there is to him and it's on Saruman's orders I'm only saying yes to the latter. He didn't propose the experimentation or anything else his boss attempts?

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#243308: Jan 8th 2021 at 10:00:19 PM

[tup] to Saruman. It sounds like Qyburn doesn’t do enough to stand out on his own

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#243309: Jan 8th 2021 at 10:03:12 PM

Hey guys I'm leaving this site for the time being. I have just lost my passion for it, and have to much real life stuff to deal with going forward. So this is goodbye.

Edited by Bullman on Jan 8th 2021 at 1:04:17 PM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
ChrisX ..... from ..... Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Singularity
.....
#243310: Jan 8th 2021 at 10:34:04 PM

Hello guys. It has been awhile since I proposed something here. However... there's someone I would like to propose.

What's the work?

The Brave Fighter of Sun Fighbird is the second installment of the Brave Series, succeeding Brave Exkaiser. It's the story of an Energy Being named Fighbird, who possesses a human android with the identity of 'Yutaro Katori' and fighting evil energy beings led by Draias, which is basically something Made of Evil. It's an earlier Brave Series, so it's a clear cut Black-and-White Morality. You might see this more as the origin of the "Is this a Pigeon?" meme, but it's still an overall fun series.

So... who am I proposing? Draias himself? After all he's Made of Evil and generally does whatever evil people does. But no, that can wait for the future. Actually, I am more talking about the Token Human of the bad guys, Dr. Jango.

Who is Dr. Jango? What has he done?

Dr. Jango is basically somehow a clear cut Mad Scientist and Evil Old Folks. His backstory was rather vague, but he seemed like he had a rivalry with the protagonistic professor Hiroshi Amano for... vague reasons or something not very adequate, the show didn't delve too far in it except that Jango stole/copied Amano's research, modify it to use for evil and then claim it as his own. But regardless, when Draias entered Earth, Jango greeted him wholeheartedly and partnered with him in order to bring darkness into the realm of mankind, taking delight in the suffering of men and wanting them to bow down to him, just because.

Some of his actions get REALLY petty and even listed as a Moral Event Horizon, and that was as early as the 9th episode: When humans were handing out Nobel prize for scientist stuffs and Amano won it, Jango got mad and demanded that the Nobel prize is handed to him because he feels entitled. And if they refuse the demand? He threatens to use Amano's invention to melt the whole cities. Very petty. It's a good thing this is more or less a light-hearted Super Robot Genre show so his damage wasn't that big (or reversed).

And as much as he's partnering with Draias, Jango wasn't even THAT loyal to him. When he found an item that could subdue Draias, he planned to use it on his own benefit, to replace Draias as the self-proclaimed King of Darkness. Thankfully, not only Fighbird shattered half of the device, Draias found out about it and destroyed the other half, halting Jango's plan to move up on the Sorting Algorithm of Evil.

Eventually, during one scheme where Jango took Dr. Kunieda as a hostage while keeping hospitals to do its job of saving lives and healing the sick, Kunieda actually called out Jango: how could he, as a fellow human, be gleeful at how much humans suffer like this?? Jango's response is that he doesn't give a damn, he just wants to get what he wants as well as just making the other humans suffer.

When the show reached its climax, Jango got into a Fountain of Youth, restoring his youth. He then claims with his power, he will make humans bow down to him. Unfortunately, he was kind of The Unfought, as Draias is the Final Boss. However, once Draias is defeated, he reverted back to his old age and finally, the local police (Inspector Satsuda) on the side of Fighbird caught up to him and hauled him to the place where he belongs: The jail.

Heinousness?

Draias mostly calls the big shot and his men are mostly gleeful in their evil because they ARE Card-Carrying Villain Made of Evil and technically aliens. Jango, on the other hand, is full on human, and yet he is extremely power hungry, entitled asshole that would sell out his own kin for more power and having desires to either make them suffer or rule them all, and he has free reigns in doing his evil things, with Draias enabling him or he's enabling Draias. They don't touch much of his Freudian Excuse or his rivalry with Amano, but whatever it is, it wouldn't be enough for his dismissal against humankind and how he just sees them as pawns or evil stuffs... so he might as well be evil since birth. The series portrays the trope Humans Are Good in general... but Jango is an exception of that, he has absolutely no shame in trampling on his own kin (or even his alien boss Draias himself) for power or petty reasons.

And this also carried over when compared to its predecessor Brave Exkaiser. That series were full on Humans Are Good and Aliens Are Bastards, the only villains were full on space pirates, and their leader, Dino Geist, was considered a Complete Monster, but... they're aliens. And additionally, for the Draias forces, they operated with loyalty to each other, Zol and Shura perform good team-ups when possible and they have Undying Loyalty to Draias, and while Draias might lash out at their failures, they tend to be more shocking blasts, Draias kept utilizing them to the end and they served loyally. And as stated above, Jango absolutely would trample his own kin for more power. He wasn't doing it under Draias' orders, as their relations were more about partnership, he has free reigns on his actions, all he would get would be just mocking in case he failed but he's not Just Following Orders. Any schemes he came up, it's all on his own twisted mind. And as stated, he has zero Freudian Excuse.

Fighbird shows that while Aliens can be bastards, certain humans can too, and Jango is basically the first irredeemably evil human character in the otherwise positive-towards-humans series.

Oh and by the way, his modus operandi on evil science were mostly stealing the creation of Amano and then re-model it to use it for evil and destructive methods.

Mitigating factors?

The mitigating factors is that he might count as being Laughably Evil, because sometimes he went so over the top and when he actually failed, Zol and Shura or sometimes Draias instead mock him for his failures (although it's sounding more like trying to assure that they're on a higher level of heinousness, in which Jango usually response in trying to make sure he's higher), and combined with the more lighthearted setting of the series, he looked like 'just another villain'. And he definitely wasn't a Knight of Cerebus as either Draias or Dino Geist before him. But that was only in meta manner, the series doesn't even bother to give him a clear backstory or Freudian Excuse (and even if it existed, it wouldn't be enough to mitigate his sheer entitlement and pettiness and obsession in Evil).

Additionally, in terms of sheer damage... well, Draias outclasses him, because he is the bigger fish and a being Made of Evil (while his acts in Episode 9 did cause big damage, the America arc would result an even greater damage that Draias repeated it again in the finale in an even greater scale, and Jango was complicit on it on his own, it's just not clear whose idea was it in the first place, could be a joint agreement), but whenever he does, you can bet Jango will be there, to taunt mankind and leech off their suffering, going along with Draias' more destructive plans. But it's your call to consider if damage amount might become his mitigating factor (but be warned that Jango's actions were not an example of Poke the Poodle)

Is this a normal evil character? (Verdict)

I'm willing to say that yes, he's a monster. He lets his pettiness and disdain towards anything not him, and with how he's the only human who is deranged, petty and evil in a setting where Humans Are Good and he wasn't even being threatened by Draias' orders (they're partners)... Yeah. Not sure about you guys, though... Well?

Edited by ChrisX on Jan 9th 2021 at 7:17:55 PM

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#243312: Jan 9th 2021 at 12:24:59 AM

Abstain on Jango. Draias sounds more heinous given that he ordered all that. I know we've approved extremely sadistic minions, but that seems more of a case-by-case thing. Edit: I read it again, and I'm keeping my abstain due to his most heinous deeds being ordered. Yes to Grimmel and (S)aruman. Yes, I really did just reference Ralph Bakshi's LOTR.

Edited by Klavice on Jan 9th 2021 at 12:27:43 PM

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#243313: Jan 9th 2021 at 12:46:26 AM

Yes to Saruman and Grimmel.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
ChrisX ..... from ..... Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Singularity
.....
#243314: Jan 9th 2021 at 1:12:30 AM

Edit: I read it again, and I'm keeping my abstain due to his most heinous deeds being ordered.

Which one? I might re-view the episode again and see if this was real ordered or it's his whole idea all along. Draias is either ordering him something or Jango suggests something and Draias giving an OK about it (anything that sounds evil is OK in his books because he is after all Made of Evil).

Also that reminds me on one thing... loyalty. I'll add up to the upper thing, but it's also a reminder that Zol and Shura were loyal to each other and especially Draias, and Draias never exactly exacted terrible retribution against his allies, aside of minor blasts for You Have Failed Me moments. So we could say that the dastardly aliens were tightly-knit together. Jango sold his own kin for his own advancements and isn't exactly loyal to anyone at all (like his attempt to take over Draias), he's only out for himself.

(Don't worry, if Draias is a candidate, it'll be a matter of time until I propose him. For now, I want to finish up Brave Exkaiser and see how his predecessor (Dino Geist) live up to the CM-dom for Draias to compete)

Edited by ChrisX on Jan 9th 2021 at 4:54:54 PM

WatTambor Since: Oct, 2020
#243315: Jan 9th 2021 at 1:30:37 AM

[tup] to Saruman, Jango and Grimmel

BTW guys, I think that after Jenna Zan Arbor we might need to discuss one of the other Star Wars keepers again. I am talking about Lord Cronal.

Who is he? What has he done?

Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor: Lord Cronal, aka "Shadowspawn" or "Blackhole", fanatically believed the only true power was that of destruction and even participated in the rape of his own daughter alongside the Prophets of the Dark Side out of fury for her using her powers of creation. Plotting to overthrow Emperor Palpatine while serving under him, Cronal declared himself the New Galactic Emperor following the latter's death and waged war on the New Republic. Embarking on a campaign of death and destruction, Cronal also kidnapped, lobotomized and mind-controlled force users to serve as backup bodies should his own fail him, seeking to do the same to Luke or Leia Skywalker. When his attempt to take Luke or Leia failed, Cronal used the kill switches implanted in his forces to send them on suicide runs while he escaped, resulting in the death of all 50,000. Cronal's nihilism set him on a campaign of death, with his goal as Emperor being to end all of existence.

Why I think he might need another discussion?

I admit that I haven`t read any of the books he appears in and all my info about him comes from the Internet, so take the information I present here with a grain of salt.

I was recently browsing through the Internet when I stumbled upon this article. There is a detailed biography about Lord Cronal and his deeds.

While I was reading this article I noticed this part about the aftermath of his defeat at Luke Skywalker`s hands:

Much like his offspring, Cronal’s very persistence in existing now became a criminal iniquity against the Dark itself. Forsaken by his faith, the profligate father thus sought out his daughter to beg her forgiveness for his unforgivable abuses … finding her, at last, a worm-eaten corpse on the planet Ruusan, apparently cut down in a lightsaber duel.

In that eternal instant of guilt and heartbreak, the deranged Rhandite lost all grip on reality and his philosophy of entropy.

According to the article after Cronal lost the battle with Luke Skywalker and nearly died, he was expelled from his own cult. Cronal then sought his daughter to beg her for forgiveness for raping her and allowing the other cultists to gang rape her. After he finds her corpse, he is devastated and overwhelmed with guilt.

Conclusion

As I already mentioned, you should take this info with a grain of salt. However, the author of this article appears to have a deep knowledge about Star Wars, so I don`t think we should dismiss it entirely.

It would be really helpful if someone who has read the actual books could provide his opinion on the matter.

Edited by WatTambor on Jan 9th 2021 at 6:47:07 AM

ChrisX ..... from ..... Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Singularity
.....
#243316: Jan 9th 2021 at 2:01:24 AM

Update on Jango:

I re-viewed the 9th episode of Fighbird, and it reveals some vital things. Most especially: Jango wasn't exactly under Draias' orders. Their relations sounds more like a 'partnership', where each side provides resources to each other. As a result, Jango does not have the excuse of Just Following Orders, he willingly partnered with a being Made of Evil in a bid for more power. That scheme of the episode, for instance? Draias does not have an input on that, all he did was tell Zol and Shura to just lend him resources for whatever it is he planned. And not even Zol and Shura have high opinions on him, although it was less 'this guy is too dangerous for our own good', they will just mock his failure all the same.

(And additionally, turns out Jango's science were mostly stolen from the more heroic Amano, and just modified it to evil, so people would see him as a great Evil Genius. But at this point, I think it would be an equal to Jaywalking)

So, I will update his entry and you can re-read and re-evaluate.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#243318: Jan 9th 2021 at 2:06:27 AM

[tup]Grimmel and Jango

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#243319: Jan 9th 2021 at 2:46:51 AM

With all that in mind yes to Jango.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#243320: Jan 9th 2021 at 4:03:04 AM

I'll waot and see if anybody's read Cronal's stuff, but honestly that does sound pretty damning.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#243321: Jan 9th 2021 at 4:24:47 AM

Lighty? I think you did Cronal?

Yes to Grimmel, Saruman, Jango.

Speaking of the Brave series, does Dino Geist really need 260 words?

  • Brave Exkaiser: Dino Geist is the universe's most infamous Space Pirate, having ravaged and plundered planets across the universe with his crew, the Geisters, who were usually Laughably Evil, while Dino Geist was played dead seriously. Dino Geist would endanger countless human lives to either gain as much treasure as he can, or simply to spite the Kaisers, to the point of attempting to detonate Mt. Fuji and put the 8 million people in the surrounding area in danger, purely to harm the humans the Kaisers cared so much about. On several occasions, Dino Geist takes hostages, both human or Kaiser, to gain an advantage, then tries to kill them without a second thought once he got his way, in some cases even indulging in torture while waiting. Even his own allies aren't safe from his ruthlessness, as both his Friend in the Black Market and his own crew are ultimately abandoned to the Kaisers without a second thought when it suits the pirate's goals. The Final Battle sees him attempt to kidnap Kouta and take him off world as a trophy solely to spite Exkaiser for getting in his ways, and when that fails, threatens his life get an advantage over his archenemy. Even Dino Geist's death is an act of malice and spite, as he casts himself into the sun, taking his own life to insult Exkaiser's belief all life is a treasure rather than allowing the Kaiser to arrest him. Vindictive and Greedy beyond measure, Dino Geist's reputation as the worst Space Pirate in the universe was well earned.

ChrisX ..... from ..... Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Singularity
.....
#243322: Jan 9th 2021 at 4:32:52 AM

Remind me how many words do we have as a limit when it comes to writeups and does that include linking words?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#243323: Jan 9th 2021 at 4:35:53 AM

There's no OFFICIAL limit, but anything above 200, 250 for those with long rapsheets, MAYBE 300 for those with REALLY long rapsheets is pushing it. For example, Cell is 250+, Frieza is 300+, while Ultron & Red Skull are over 330. Cell does a lot, Frieza does a WHOLE lot, and the latter 2 have been around for decades. The idea is to mention their key crimes so it's clear that their a CM, but not to mention SO many crimes that it becomes a chore to read.

Like, for example, apparently Exkaiser had 48 episodes. The Big Bad of a 48-episode anime probably doesn't need to be 260 words. Hell, the entire final sentence could probably be chopped; maybe the one before that as well.

Like, for example:

  • Brave Exkaiser: Dino Geist is the universe's most infamous Space Pirate, having ravaged and plundered planets across the universe with his crew, the Geisters. Dino Geist would endanger countless human lives to either gain as much treasure as he can, or simply to spite the Kaisers, to the point of attempting to detonate Mt. Fuji and put the 8 million people in the surrounding area in danger, purely to harm the humans the Kaisers cared so much about. On several occasions, Dino Geist takes hostages, both human or Kaiser, to gain an advantage, then tries to kill them without a second thought once he got his way, in some cases even indulging in torture while waiting. Even his own allies aren't safe from his ruthlessness, as both Trader and his own crew are ultimately abandoned to the Kaisers without a second thought when it suits the pirate's goals. The Final Battle sees him attempt to kidnap Kouta and take him off world as a trophy solely to spite Exkaiser for getting in his ways, and when that fails, threatens his life get an advantage over his archenemy. Dino Geist eventually casts himself into the sun, taking his own life to insult Exkaiser's belief that all life is a treasure rather than allowing the Kaiser to arrest him.
That right there is under 240. I also made a few more tweaks to shorten it even more.

Edited by ACW on Jan 9th 2021 at 7:40:51 AM

Tvtropesfan234 Since: Nov, 2019
#243324: Jan 9th 2021 at 4:51:33 AM

[tup] to Grimmel, Mary Lou, Saruman, and Jango.

Edited by Tvtropesfan234 on Jan 9th 2021 at 5:12:46 AM

DrScavenge27 Since: Jul, 2020
#243325: Jan 9th 2021 at 5:07:43 AM

[tup] to Saruman and Jango. Also late [tup] for Girlfriend.


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