During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Nah, we can just put the examples on their own game pages.
So... Ragyo still isn't on the page or the sandbox...
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Actually, Camberf, might not be a bad idea. Bioware would have Baldurs Gate, Jade Empire (which BADLY needs condensing), and Mass Effect 3. Bethesda would have Elder Scrolls and Fallout...actually, come to think of it, it may not be worth it. Blizzard has 10; Bioware only 4; and Bethesda...well, Fallout's probably best with its own page. My comment about Jade Empire stands. Anything over 300 starts to become a Wall of Text. I've created a folder with entries needing condensing.
![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
Kehck and maybe Xehanort are okay, but the other three are over 350 words. Joker may be fine since it's three games, but Hector and definitely Sun Li not so much. Granted, Palpatine's entry is nearly 500 words, but he does SO much.
Hell, I'm wondering if it wouldn't be a bad idea to give Palpatine his own folder and then indent it by work. Just a stray thought.
edited 10th Apr '14 12:18:31 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
That's down to the mods now.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Bioware also has the Dragon Age series which has its own subpage with 4 examples. Suggest leaving Monster.Fallout alone since, while Bethesda may own the franchise now, the first two games were done by developer Black Isle and New Vegas was made by Obsidian Entertainment.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
A subpage which I personally think could be brought to the main page along with several others...
Bioware ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
, Bethesda ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
edited 10th Apr '14 1:57:23 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Yeah, I was wondering about that. I'd still support a Bioware page, though.
edited 10th Apr '14 2:11:34 PM by Camberf
Lizzid people!
I had just added Ragyo to the Sandbox page. I also added a few more tropes to her entry, if no one minds.
- Rose of Versailles:
- Jeanne of Valois-Saint-Remy, the person who brought down Marie Antoinette and started the Revolution. Her first Moral Event Horizon was when her sister Rosalie managed to find her after she conned her way into nobility, she had her lover whip her and nearly kill her to drive her off. Her second? Killing the kind noblewoman who took her in to inherit her fortune. Third...the entire diamond affair. Note, in the manga she at least has the trait of loving Nicolas, her lover and later husband. In the anime...she doesn't. All she loves is money and herself.
- The Duke de Guemenee kills a boy named Pierre right after promising not to hurt him after he had stolen his wallet out of hunger. He laughs after gunning the boy down, and Oscar has to be restrained not to throttle him.
On the character page, Jeanne's folder has this:
- Even Evil Has Standards: She intends to kill Nicole d'Olivia, the prostitute who she hired to impersonate the queen and the one person who can connect her to the Affair of the Diamond Necklace, but can't bring herself to do it. This causes her downfall.
- Partially averted in the manga: while not liking doing it, she could bring herself to kill Nicole, but she is still unsheating her knife when Oscar and her soldiers barge in with an arrest warrant, both saving Nicole and discovering her existance.
Sounds like a cut.
The Duke of Guenemee sounds like a better qualifier.
I am not sure I could describe the villains in Captain America: The Winter Solider as Well Intentioned Extremists, killing anyone who could be a threat to Hydra seems rather selfish, especially since they were going to kill innocent people who were a threat to them. The Evils of Free Will is not a very sympathetic motive. However none of the villains in that film count as Complete Monsters. They seem more like Knights Templar, at best.
Anyway, sorry I meant to do a write up for movie Blackheart sooner, but I have been busy lately. Without further ado:
- In the extended cut of Ghost Rider, Blackheart is a prince of Hell and the son of Mephistopheles. Jealous of his father's power and angered by the fact that Mephistopheles gave the power of Hellfire to a lowly human instead of him, Blackheart plans to obtain the contract of San Venganza. This contract would grant him the power of a thousand evil souls who made a Deal with the Devil. Through out the movie, Blackheart murders almost every human he comes into contact with, only sparing those who can serve his plans later. Blackheart ultimately plans to use the power of the contract to create Hell on Earth and devour as many souls and then overthrow his father.
edited 10th Apr '14 6:58:49 PM by TheOverlord
Should Chris Genovese/Red Mist from Kick Ass be removed from the Marvel Comics section? The latest issue gave him a Redemption Equals Death.
Okay, James Bond novel #4, Diamonds are Forever, complete. Nobody I'd call a Complete Monster. The villains are the Spang brothers, Jack and Seraffimo; they're boring. They're so boring they're the only literary Bond villains never adapted to film. Their scheme is just diamond smuggling; in the film the smuggling plot was retained, but became just one arm of one of Blofeld's classic global extortion schemes.
Lizzid people!
A Knight Templar can evolve into a CM, however.
....The Motherfucker gets Redemption Equals Death? Are you kidding me?
The Motherfucker is complex.
According to the character page, The Motherfucker made a Heel–Face Turn due to his love for his mother.
Ah yes, the mother card. The easiest way to give your baddie last-minute redeeming qualities. 
Jack and Seraffimo? Aerith and Bob within one family.
EDIT: Oh and for those who don't know Serial Rapist has been launched. So we can start linking to that in appropriate examples.
edited 10th Apr '14 9:10:25 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Well, we have Dr. Arthur Light I believe. I think once the mods clear the current backlog I'll go through all the folders (sans Anime, TV, and I think we're good for VG) and see who else needs to be PotHoled to Serial Rapist. Like so
24128: Quite. Just as Joker is a Most Triumphant Example for a CM being Laughably Evil, so is Frollo one for a Knight Templar being a monster.
From Mega Man, for the animated series:
edited 11th Apr '14 5:57:22 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Does anyone mind if I cut Dr.Saleon from YMMV.Mass Effect 1? There were votes for cutting him due to offscreen villainy.
edited 11th Apr '14 4:06:43 AM by VeryMelon
Go for it.
@ACW: I don't think we need to go through previous examples just to add the new pothole. I think Ambar meant we could use the trope now when writing new entries for new examples.
From Grant Morrison
- Complete Monster: See Card-Carrying Villain above, then add to that a level of depravity and malice that seems to exist only to perpetuate evil. Be it the brain-washing academy in the The Invisibles, Cassandra Nova's entire campaign during New X-Men or the full despair of a Darkseid-run Earth in Final Crisis, Morrison loves to set his protagonists against pure embodiments of evil and submission.
Very vague and no context.
Might it be a good idea to make a similar page for Bioware or Bethesda Softworks games?
edited 10th Apr '14 11:46:05 AM by Camberf