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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#24076: Apr 9th 2014 at 6:20:04 AM

In Empowered which is a different series. The ISP could be way worse with what he has.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#24077: Apr 9th 2014 at 6:34:13 AM

Then again, we DO have Zander Rice, who mainly targeted X23.

[nja]BTW, probably today I'll create another folder in the TV Sandbox for entries needing expansion.

edited 9th Apr '14 6:50:58 AM by ACW

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#24078: Apr 9th 2014 at 7:05:21 AM

[tup] to the Tall Man. Lightysnake made a pretty convincing case for the extradimensional entity qualifying.

Has Damien been added to the edit request thread yet?

With little evidence that Akasha's rule could be redeeming and the way in which she seems to have became more evil over time, I think she safely qualifies in both the book verse and movie verse. Even if she did find cannibalism repulsive when she was still human, devouring thousands of vampires (i.e. her own kind) in the present out of a mad quest to totally dominate the world as a god-queen seems to make her a rather blatant hypocrite. Here are two write-ups for the different incarnations of the character.

  • Queen Akasha from The Vampire Chronicles was the first vampire ever made and also the most evil, being a selfish, nihilistic predator with a desire to dominate everyone else. She orders the massacre of Maharet and Mekare's village down to the last woman and child all so that she could obtain their spirit-summoning powers for herself, has them publicly raped and humiliated before her court, and finally sentences them to be mutilated and burned because she unfairly blamed them for the accident that turned her and her husband King Enkil into the Mother and Father. It is worse in modern times, as she plans to execute almost every human male in the world in order to set up a paradise over which she will rule over as a goddess, flying around the globe and hypnotizing hundreds of women at a time into committing these murders while she watches. She massacres most of the vampires in the world and threatens to do the same to the lone survivors if they refuse to join her New World Order. She even drains her husband to death to take his powers and have Lestat as her new mate. Among the actions of countless morally gray characters that appear within The Chronicles, her crimes are a stark contrast that make it all the more apparent.

  • Queen Akasha of the loose movie adaptation Queen of the Damned was the first vampire, the progenitor of the race and by far the most evil. She ruled over Ancient Egypt with her husband Enkil as vampiric Evil Overlords, nearly annihilating mankind completely due to her massive bloodlust before turning into a living statue and sleeping for centuries. She cares about nothing but her own gratification and is feared and hated by the other Ancient vampires (her closest relatives) for her indiscriminate slaughter of humans and vampires alike. After she awakens she drains her husband to death to absorb his powers and because she's interested in having Lestat as her new consort. She kills a club full of vampires by immolating them all after ripping out the heart of one of them and eating it. She later feeds on several hundred people in a single night, causing Lestat to question what she would want with a kingdom of corpses. She confronts the other Ancients who have come to live in peace with humanity to announce her plan to turn the world back into a vampire tyranny and reduce the humans to cattle. She promises to kill them all if they refuse to join her, before ordering Lestat to kill his human love interest Jesse to prove his loyalty to her and tries to kill him too without a second thought after he turns on her.

edited 9th Apr '14 7:13:31 AM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#24079: Apr 9th 2014 at 7:45:57 AM

Yes Damian's been requested. The mods are just busy.

KyleJacobs from DC - Southern efficiency, Northern charm Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#24080: Apr 9th 2014 at 7:58:40 AM

[down] to anyone from Winter Soldier, for being a Well-Intentioned Extremist even with that much emphasis on "extremist."

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#24081: Apr 9th 2014 at 8:01:54 AM

[up]Agreed. BIG emphasis on the extremist, but still [tdown]

edited 9th Apr '14 8:16:12 AM by ACW

despoa Since: Aug, 2012
#24082: Apr 9th 2014 at 10:15:31 AM

Agreed on the Winter Soldier candidates. Disregarding the heinous standard set by the Red Skull, they have clear cut motives unlike Malekith but, as the others said, they are each a Well-Intentioned Extremist. I'd say they're no different from Loki from The Avengers.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#24083: Apr 9th 2014 at 10:20:29 AM

Well, Loki we don't know WHAT'S with him.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#24084: Apr 9th 2014 at 10:23:23 AM

The whole cannibalism thing by Akasha...my friend tells me it's more her being a venal hypocrite obsessed with control. When she outlaws cannibalism, two future vampires are of a tribe that practices cannibalism on the deceased as a spiritual thing. Akasha has the whole tribe slaughtered when they hold a ritual for the twins' mother.

She then brings the twins in and interrogates them, first with a rather quick "we had them killed because..." Then rather callously launches into a litany of questioning regarding the spirits they serve as she's intrigued by their power.

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#24085: Apr 9th 2014 at 10:24:08 AM

@24072: I'm going with lighty and biggles, Euron just hasn't really done enough onscreen to count for this trope yet. The books have a very high heinous standard and so far Euron hasn't done enough to meet it.

@24074: I don't really think it's an unreasonable request. It's not really any different from qualifying a film character for not displaying the redeeming qualities their book counterpart had. In every version other than the English dub, all Gonzo does is torture one girl and kill her would-be rescuer (not including trying to kill the heroes). That's not heinous enough when compared with other villains from the show who have bigger rap sheets and even his fellow club members who did far worse torture for fun. The English dub is the only version where he's the founder of the Black Black Club, so their crimes only fall to him in that version, rendering him heinous enough.

@24090: Queen Akasha write-ups look good to me.

@24092: Agreed with no one from Captain America: The Winter Soldier counting. The villains are all Well Intentioned Extremists, and, in addition to that, the Big Bad has a loved one.

edited 9th Apr '14 10:26:33 AM by OccasionalExister

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#24086: Apr 9th 2014 at 11:00:52 AM

Tall Man update:

Okay, I literally just found this out last night, but a fifth and final Phantasm film was greenlit and a teaser trailer is out, with Angus Scrimm (at age 87) returning to be the Tall Man a final time.

....After sixteen years of waiting. Well, right now, no issues keeping The Tall Man for me, if anyone else wants to chime in there.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#24087: Apr 9th 2014 at 11:26:19 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1wOobOGa4w Hope it gets made before Scrimm passes away.

[nja]From Sleeping Dogs:

* Complete Monster: Dogeyes and Big Smile Lee come to mind. Roland may or may not be one, depending on how you feel about being asked to harass a newly-made widow over her husband's debts.
  • Mr. Tong. He killed Jackie and used his corpse to lure Wei into a trap. After catching Wei, he proceeds to torture him with a knife, a hammer, and a drill, all while taunting Wei about his failures. He also mentions that the last undercover cop he caught lasted for 48 hours, and wonders if Wei can make a new record.

edited 9th Apr '14 11:39:19 AM by ACW

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#24088: Apr 9th 2014 at 12:54:58 PM

Oh, I think the film is basically done.

Oh, good, Sleeping Dogs! Let's discuss. Exister had commentary here

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#24089: Apr 9th 2014 at 12:56:54 PM

Roland's a cut (Jerkass, but he doesn't kill anyone; the husband of the widow commits suicide to avoide Wei Shan, who's working for Roland); the other three are possibilities.
[nja]From Stranglehold:

* Complete Monster: Though Mr. James Wong at first seems like a Neighborhood Friendly Gangster in a Mob War involving the Russian mafia, he proves to be even worse than the Russians and the Golden Kane combined, particularly when he has his own daughter murdered by Tequila's own partner.

edited 9th Apr '14 1:20:58 PM by ACW

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#24090: Apr 9th 2014 at 2:47:58 PM

Re Sleeping Dogs: Okay Roland is a definite no, a Jerkass yes, but not a monster.

As for Dogeyes, he works as a professional boyfriend, meaning he courts girls, gets them addicted to drugs, then ropes them into prostitution to pay for their habit. He did this to protagonist, Wei Shen's, sister which lead to her death of drug overdose. However, I don't remember any of this boyfriend business ever being shown onscreen, plus Dogeyes is just a cog in that operation run by Big Smile Lee. Dogeyes also wages a turf war against a former friend and fellow gang member, Winston, causing a civil war within the Sun On Yee. He even goes so far as to attack Winston's wedding, resulting in the death of Winston and his fiancé, as well as the eventual death of Chairman Uncle Po through injuries sustained in the shootout. However, both the gang civil war and the wedding attack were backed by Big Smile Lee in order to create opportunities for him to get more power over the gang. In short, I don't think Dogeyes counts because pretty much everything he does is done on Lee's behest.

As for Mr. Tong, he's a particularly horrifying Torture Technician who tortured a former cop that had infiltrated the Sun On Yee for two days before burying him alive, buries Jackie Ma alive, then, after you save Jackie, tortures and disembowels Jackie, then tortures Wei himself through excruciating means. As I said, he's horrifying... but like Dogeyes all of his actions were done at the behest of Big Smile Lee, so I don't think Tong counts either.

As for Big Smile Lee himself, he's easily the worst person in the game. He runs the operation that gets girls hooked on drugs then turns them into prostitutes, he's responsible for the Sun On Yee civil war, he backed the attack on Winston's wedding, he orders Mr. Tong to torture the undercover cop, Jackie and Wei, and he's known for his brutality to such an extent that even other gangsters despise and fear him. Here's where we hit a snag, however. According to Word of God, he's motivated by a desire to make his several daughters, who are in college overseas in the U.S., obscenely rich. To say this doesn't mesh with his portrayal in game as a hardcore psychopath would be a phenomenal Understatement. In fact, just through playing the game you'd think his only goal is to become Chairman of the Triad for the money and power. The mention of his daughters may be in an in-game unlockable police report, but I'd have to double-check. If it's alright, I'd like a day or two to research this a bit further before making a decision on Lee, since I honestly don't remember anything about Lee loving his family being shown in the game.

edited 9th Apr '14 6:30:00 PM by OccasionalExister

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#24091: Apr 9th 2014 at 3:27:58 PM

[up]Feel free to take your time. So basically, if ANYONE counts, only Lee does?

CorrTerek The Permanently Confused from The Bland Line Since: Jul, 2009
The Permanently Confused
#24092: Apr 9th 2014 at 3:30:51 PM

If Mr. Lee's dedication to his daughters is only mentioned in an unlockable (especially one that's second-hand like a police report) then I'd say that's not enough to cut him.

What would we call that? Offscreen Petting The Dog?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#24093: Apr 9th 2014 at 3:35:20 PM

Yeah, that's just a flat out bizarre factor....

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#24094: Apr 9th 2014 at 3:50:24 PM

Dedication to raising an offspring isn't always the same as loving them. We have to be certain of that distinction.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#24095: Apr 9th 2014 at 3:54:10 PM

Yeah, if you're raising them just to carry on your legacy you can still count (isn't that what Vidal did?).

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#24096: Apr 9th 2014 at 3:57:38 PM

[up] His reasons were that, and to one-up his own father by inevitably dying in the war and ensuring that his son knew he was a hero, thus giving him a big shadow to live under.

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#24097: Apr 9th 2014 at 5:49:32 PM

On Anime & Manga

  • In Reiko the Zombie Shop, Saki Yurikawa is a mentally messed-up, knife-wielding serial killer obsessed with finding little girls to replace her dead ( actually comatose) little sister. When the girls refuse to comply or make Saki made in any way, she snaps. Her two debut stories in the first volume, Dead Sister, reveal that she has already murdered over thirty little girls, including one of her classmates, an investigative reporter, her cameraman, and Reiko Himezono herself. In the case of the investigative reporter, Saki had threatened to murder her daughter if she didn't get to her apartment in ten minutes. The reporter managed to get to the apartment in time. Saki already killed her daughter. In the battle against Reiko, Saki finally gets her Laser-Guided Karma by way of Reiko summoning a portal to hell, where Saki is greeted by her many victims. All this despite Reiko being reduced to a severed head. In the next volume onward, Saki is now forced to silently serve Reiko as her personal zombie.

Does she love her sister?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#24098: Apr 9th 2014 at 6:04:44 PM

That sounds more like obsession.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#24099: Apr 9th 2014 at 9:03:38 PM

Just finished Season 5 of Justified. No CMs this season, I think we'll want to keep an eye on Catherine Hale for next season. Because jeez lady. If she lives up to her reputation...

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#24100: Apr 10th 2014 at 7:22:31 AM

Is Blizzard Entertainment ready to be locked?

[nja]Alright, I completed the folder at Complete Monster Live Action TV for entries needing expansion. P.S. If all the examples stay some shows may need their own subpages (EG Highlander).

edited 10th Apr '14 11:45:25 AM by ACW


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