During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Yamada.
@43110 and Lightysnake: Thank you.
Here's my second candidate (I'll give a short break for my third candidate). Not too sure if this guy will count, but it's worth a shot.
What's the Work?
I've already covered this here
.
Who is Mr. Yoon and What Has He Done?
Mr. Yoon, full name Yoon Hak-chul, was a former advocate of Korean independence and a resistance fighter against Japan's occupation of Korea, but at some point, he defected to Japan and was willingly sent to Hashima Island to serve as a mole among the Korean laborers. Given his past, many Koreans respect him and approach him with any escape plans that they concoct, in which Mr. Yoon supposedly gives them there full support and advice, but in reality, he informs the Japanese guards of these plans and sets up the escapees to be killed. This explains why no escape attempt from Hashima Island has ever succeeded, which is shown in the first scene where a Japanese patrol boat led by Yamada "miraculously" find two escapees swimming and drown them. In exchange, Mr. Yoon gets to embezzle the compensation from dead escapees, as well as the wages that are supposed to be given to the laborers.
Later on, the Korean resistance movement sends an agent, Park Moo-young, to Hashima Island to rescue Mr. Yoon, unaware of his betrayal. During the two's escape plan, Moo-young breaks into an office and finds financial records revealing Mr. Yoon's embezzlement scheme and confronts him about it, now aware of his treachery. However, the confrontation is intervened by Kang-ok, who was in on the escape plan and is furious that they were going to ditch him and his daughter, and Ko Choong-ho, another collaborator in the escape plan who was left out. Before the situation can develop further, the American bombings happen on Hashima Island. Mr. Yoon tries to kill Moo-young, but he escapes. Choong-ho, still unaware of Mr. Yoon's crimes, arrives to help him, but Mr. Yoon shoots him dead to eliminate a witness to his and Moo-young's confrontation.
Meeting up with Yamada, the new overseer, Mr. Yoon learns of his plan to wipe out all evidence of the war crimes committed on Hashima Island and agrees to it in exchange for safe passage out of the complex. With this plan in mind, Mr. Yoon meets up with the rest of the laborers, lying that the Japanese are going to significantly improve their working conditions if everyone, including the women and children, works in the mine for one day, setting them up to be buried alive. During his speech, Moo-young objects to it and reveals his collaboration to the Japanese. His claims are soon backed up by Kang-ok and another laborer, both of whom discreetly witnessed his murder of Choong-ho and have the records detailing his embezzlement of funds and the dozens of escapee deaths he manipulated. Despite Mr. Yoon's pleas for everyone to listen to him, an enraged Moo-young approaches him with a knife and slits his throat.
Does He Have Any Mitigating Qualities or Freudian Excuse?
At first, he appears to be an old, benevolent figure who wants to help everyone, but this is just a front he puts on for everybody to trust him and continue to act as a mole for the Japanese. No Freudian Excuse to speak of either.
Does He Meet the Heinousness Standard?
This is where I'm a bit iffy with him. He lacks some of the more visceral crimes committed by Yamada, but I think he makes up for this by having a bigger attempted body count, as he's the one ultimately responsible for the dozens of deaths from failed escapes and later attempts to murder every single Korean with Yamada. Given that he has significantly lower resources than Yamada, having nothing but his wit, that's pretty substantial. It's also shown that he was the one who first approached the Japanese with his plan to manipulate the deaths of escapees and wasn't ordered to do that, so that crime can be directly attributed to him. Overall, I think the combination of factors, as well as his lower resources compared to the other antagonists, make him barely stand out, but I could go either way.
Final Verdict?
What do you guys think?
Edited by DrUnknown on Dec 21st 2020 at 8:14:47 AM
@therealjackieboy and 43110: Thank you.
My last candidate. I'm also not too sure if he'll qualify as well, but I'm going to give it a shot too.
What is the Work?
I've already covered this here
.
Who is Shimazaki Daisuke and What Has He Done?
Shimazaki Daisuke is the initial manager of the coal mines, who is responsible for the enslavement of thousands of Koreans to either work under harsh conditions in the coal mines or, if they are a women, forced to become a comfort women to be used for sexual slavery and subjec tto abuse and rape, in which young children like Lee So-hee aren't exempt from this. As for the men working in the coal mines, these conditions include starving them, allowing his guards to physically abuse them, and forcing them into working in dangerous areas of the mines, which leads to the deaths of some via working accidents. Although the laborers are supposed to receive wages, Daisuke embezzles the money for himself and Mr. Yoon.
When Kang-ok and the latest batch of laborers arrives, he takes So-hee and several other women as comfort women for himself and his inner circle. Utterly horrified by the experience so far, So-hee reveals that she and her family are part of a band in an attempt to receive Daisuke's favoritism and better their living conditions. The gambit works, in which an amused Daisuke takes her as his personal servant and has her father's entire band as his personal entertainers for a lavish party he throws with his advisors. After the party, he is informed that there has been a work accident at Mine No. 2, where a gas leak and several sparks start an explosion that threatens the rest of the mine complex. To resolve the issue, Daisuke orders Mine No. 2 to be closed off, dismissing the laborers who are still stuck in the mine and leaving them for dead. His guards follow the orders, but Daisuke's soon forced to rescind the orders when he learns that a popular laborer, Mr. Yoon, is also trapped there and killing him would incite a revolt from the other Koreans.
As World War 2 progresses, the Americans eventually launch a bombing on Hashima Island, in which one of the bombs lands on the building that Daisuke was in, chronically injuring him. With the tide of the war turning on Japan, Yamada decides to erase all evidence of his war crimes and, to ensure that he's the one in charge to carry out the procedure, strangles Daisuke on his hospital bed.
Does He Have Any Mitigating Qualities or Freudian Excuse?
He puts on an affable front, but this is him being Faux Affably Evil, as he has no qualms over enslaving and killing the laborers under his control. The nicest thing he does in the entire film is offer Kang-ok to send his daughter to Mr. Chiba (his boss) to replace the one he lost to Allied bombings. However, this is more of just an attempt by Daisuke to get into Mr. Chiba's good graces rather than out of genuinely good intentions, so that's not really mitigating either.
Does He Meet the Heinousness Standard?
This was what gave me pause, as he's shown to have a lower body count than both Yamada and Mr. Yoon. However, I think his institution of sexual slavery through comfort women is unique enough to make him stand out, especially since we're shown scenes of the being abused by their "husbands," there are mentions of them being raped, and children are subjected to this. This crime is also never committed by Yamada once he takes control, so this can be uniquely attributed to Daisuke.
Final Verdict?
What do you guys think?
Yes to Daisuke.
43 and Lighty: I suppose you two make a fair argument, but it looks we'll have to agree to disagree on Joffrey, because this has been debated countless times in the past by others. I don't remember any specific moments in the show where him idolizing vs. actually loving Robert is made 100% clear, but then again I haven't watched seasons 1-4 in quite a long time...
And I guess you could say that Irene is actually more vengeful vs. sadistic in the second game due to what happened to Bubi. She develops a disturbing fascination with making others watch people get brutally murdered since she had to do that herself, as made evident with Caroline and BJ.
But me personally, I'm just glad that Ramsay and Rip both have entries and I hope they stay for the rest of eternity. Fuck those dudes.
Edited by WoodsyGrabass2019 on Dec 21st 2020 at 12:54:11 PM
