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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#240876: Dec 20th 2020 at 10:42:28 PM

My classic horror actor resume is missing something. I've got keepers from Karloff, Lugosi, Lee, and Price, but no Peter Cushing. This is kind of understandable on the surface since Cushing's roles were generally more hero than villain—he was always the Van Helsing to Lee's Dracula. I'm gonna change that tonight.

What's the setting?

The Black Knight from 1954 isn't a horror film, despite a title that could well serve as one. It's actually an Arthurian fantasy from early in Cushing's career with Alan Ladd in the lead. Alan Ladd plays a commoner who becomes medieval Batman and adopts the secret identity of "the Black Knight" to fight injustice and expose corruption among the Knights of the Round Table, among them the evil knight Sir Palamides.

Who is Sir Palamides? What has he done?

Sir Palamides is a Saracen (yeah, Peter Cushing as an Arab is about as convincing as Tim Curry as a Russian) serving as Dragon-in-Chief to the rather inept King Mark. The two of them seek to assassinate King Arthur and destroy Christianity; to stir unrest, Palamides has his Saracen and Cornish soldiers dress up like Vikings to throw off suspicion and slaughter innocent people across the country. A castle full of people is massacred in the opening minutes of the movie in this fashion.

When a new monastery opens up, Palamides chafes at it and decides to test how well faith holds up against "fire and the sword" and attempts to have it and all the unarmed monks within slaughtered, resulting in the death of a good many of them. In one deliciously evil scene, Palamides lines up a bunch of unarmed monks who do nothing but start praying as Palamides' men draw back their arrows. "How invincible are Christians against arrows?" Palamides speculates, before ordering his men to answer his question.

Palamides captures the fair lady Linet and orders her tortured to get what she knows, later attempting to have her sacrificed in a pagan ritual by his so-called Vikings. Palamides ultimately attempts to lay waste to Camelot itself with his army, though his attempt at assassinating King Arthur is bungled; the hero ties up King Mark and leaves him to be stabbed instead. A riveting final swordfight ensues in which Palamides meets his end by falling on the hero's knife and tumbling down some stairs.

Life's a bitch sometimes.

Any mitigating factors?

No. Technically Palamides is part of a duumvirate with King Mark, but Mark does nothing but lurk in the background and sneer. Palamides is explicitly the one making all the plans, leading the raids and flourishing his rapsheet with so many Kick the Dog moments. Tellingly he's the final opponent of the movie instead of Mark, whose death is probably even more humiliating than Palamides' is.

Conclusion?

Keeper. An exceptionally fun one for Peter Cushing too.

Edited by Scraggle on Dec 20th 2020 at 11:45:51 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#240877: Dec 20th 2020 at 10:43:47 PM

Easy keeper and I'll have my own Cushing up tonight or tomorrow.

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#240878: Dec 20th 2020 at 10:47:06 PM

[tup] Palamides. Also thanks for reminding me Congo exists.

It's Spooky Month!
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#240879: Dec 20th 2020 at 10:57:13 PM

[tup] to Palamides

Anymore votes on Tully and what I said about him?

Edited by G-Editor on Dec 20th 2020 at 8:57:53 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
WoodsyGrabass2019 Since: Jun, 2019 Relationship Status: In love with love
#240881: Dec 20th 2020 at 10:58:00 PM

Sure to Palamides. Side note: Peter Cushing is a damn good actor, I loved him in Star Wars.

Also...okay, these two have been talked about so many times in the past and it's probably getting old but...can someone please explain to me how Joffrey's love for his "father" is any different from Frau Engel's love for her boyfriend in the first game?

I know Joffrey still qualifies as a CM because even though he looked sad when Robert died he gets over it and just goes right to being a sadistic arsehole, but that's literally the exact same case with Engel. I don't recall a single time she mentioned Bubi in the second game at all; he was clearly more of a sex toy than anything else to her, and her...fascinating interactions with William prove that's exactly what men are to her IMO.

Edited by WoodsyGrabass2019 on Dec 20th 2020 at 2:11:56 PM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#240882: Dec 20th 2020 at 11:31:28 PM

Frau Engel doesn't just 'look sad' in the same sense, as opposed to Joffrey's issues being explored. She's shown trembling, shaking, her face absolutely pinched in pure sorrow and being unable to watch him die, contrast to Joff's later disdain.

WoodsyGrabass2019 Since: Jun, 2019 Relationship Status: In love with love
#240883: Dec 20th 2020 at 11:38:48 PM

When did Joffrey show disdain for Robert in the show (in contrast to the books where he visibly needs help even remembering him)? If anything, he honored him. He had some visible Tranquil Fury when a bard sang a mocking song about his late father to the point where he ordered his tongue cut out. Also, "He took the crown while [Tywin] hid under Casterly Rock!"

Granted those are both Kick the Dog moments towards dissidents, but it's better than nothing.

Edited by WoodsyGrabass2019 on Dec 20th 2020 at 2:43:24 PM

RobertTYL Since: Oct, 2019 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#240885: Dec 21st 2020 at 12:50:44 AM

[tup] Tartarus, Gillecomgain and Palamides, [tdown] Jack Harding and Tully. Cut the Angst guy.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#240886: Dec 21st 2020 at 12:50:47 AM

Yes to Palamides. Man, I'm glad I managed to get a Lee keeper (thanks again Lighty).

EDIT: One more this week:

  • Kurozuka: Hasegawa is the despotic leader of the Red Imperial Army and an Evilutionary Biologist who intends to create the "perfect" specimen of soldiers to enforce his dictatorship. Introduced having hundreds of test subjects which he deemed a "failure" disposed of by personally dropping them, one at a time, down a chute leading into a grinder where they get grounded into a bloody pulp, Hasegawa orders his minions to have the immortal Kuro captured while leaving no witnesses, resulting in innumerable civilian casualties which he doesn't bat an eye towards. Launching raid after raid resulting in the deaths of Kuro's allies, including resistance leader Saniwa and Kuro's friend Kuon, Hasegawa had Kuro and the remaining resistance members Lured into a Trap when they tried infiltrating his headquarters. After capturing Kuro, Hasegawa threatens to use Kuro's Love Interest Rai as a test subject, before finally injecting himself with a Super Serum, turning himself into a literal monster to brutally asssault Kuro.

Edited by ACW on Dec 21st 2020 at 6:25:21 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#240887: Dec 21st 2020 at 3:35:07 AM

[tup]palamides

[tdown]Tully and Jack

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#240888: Dec 21st 2020 at 4:47:30 AM

Yea to Palamides.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#240889: Dec 21st 2020 at 5:19:06 AM

[tup] to Tartarus, Gillecomgain and Sir Palamides.

Just to be clear G, how common exactly are massacres in this series?

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#240890: Dec 21st 2020 at 6:42:29 AM

Yes to Palamides.

No to Jack and Tully.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#240891: Dec 21st 2020 at 6:53:41 AM

[tup] to Palamedes

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#240893: Dec 21st 2020 at 7:20:37 AM

  • Creepshow: From the segment The Crate, Henry Northrup is a mild-mannered man married to the abusive, alcoholic Wilma. The only friend of nervous professor Dexter Stanley, Henry is the man Dex confides in when he uncovers the mysterious crate containing a ravenous monster that devours two innocent men. Sensing a way to be rid of Wilma, Henry drugs Dex, writes a letter to the gossip-loving Wilma claiming Dex attacked a woman to lure her over to the university before feeding her to the monster, whereupon he waits for it to go to sleep and binding the crate with thick chains to transport it to the nearest lake and sink it there.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#240894: Dec 21st 2020 at 7:21:59 AM

Wrong thread.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#240895: Dec 21st 2020 at 7:31:50 AM

[tup] to Sir Palamedes.

Here's another candidate.

What's the Work?

The Battleship Island is a 2017 Korean war film set in Hashima Island of Japan during World War 2, where men are enslaved and forced to work in the coal mines to fuel the Japanese war effort, while women are converted into comfort ladies. It primarily follows a Korean laborer named Lee Kang-ok, a conman posing as a musician who arrives to Hashima Island looking for an opportunity for him and his band to perform, but a mixup causes him and his daughter, Lee So-hee, to be turned into laborers. Wanting to save his and his daughter's lives, he joins in on a plan to escape the island, before escalating it to rescue everyone. Now, there are three possible candidates I wanted to bring up, not too sure if all of them will count, but I think it's worth a shot. I'll start with probably the nastiest one.

Who is Yamada and What Has He Done?

Yamada is the right-hand man of Hashima Island's overseer, Shimazaki Daisuke, taking sadistic pleasure out of abusing the Korean laborers. In his first scene, he's in charge of a patrol boat around the island, where he catches two laborers trying to escape by swimming. Although protocol states that they should be brought back alive, Yamada throws a net to drown them, knowing that bringing back dead Koreans means a higher bonus for him. For most of the film, he is responsible for regulating the laborers in the coal mines and letting his guards beat them, often with little provocation. When a hot-blooded Korean, Choi Chil-sung, gets into a fight with a Japanese guard, Yamada eggs on the confrontation, even starting a bet with his men where the winner of the bet can "have a pass" (likely rape) one of the comfort ladies who've arrived.

After the United States launches a bombing on Hashima Island and news breaks of the Hiroshima nuclear explosion, Yamada freaks out at the possibility that Japan will lose the war, especially since perpetrators of the Holocaust in Europe were prosecuted for the atrocities they committed and he'd likely face similar court trials for the crimes on Hashima Island. To prevent this, he begins measures to destroy any evidence of such war crimes, which includes murdering every single Korean laborer on the island to ensure that they can't testify against him. In addition, Daisuke was chronically injured during the bombings, so Yamada strangles him on his hospital bed to usurp his position and enact his plan.

In the direct aftermath of the bombings, a Japanese schoolgirl is murdered by several Japanese soldiers, heavily implied to have been ordered by Yamada himself. Regardless, he exploits the situation to justify his crackdowns on the Korean laborers. One laborer, Choi Chil-Sung, is accused for the crime and Yamada sends him away to be tortured as punishment. Meanwhile, Yamada works with Mr. Yoon (an old Korean laborer who is respected by the others, but is secretly a mole for the Japanese) to manipulate the Koreans into entering the coals mines and bury them alive. However, the gambit fails and many of the Korean laborers concoct a scheme to escape the island.

On the night of their escape, the Japanese guards catch them and a battle ensues between both sides, with Yamada himself joining in. As the battle progresses, Yamada grows increasingly incensed and orders his men to kill all of the Koreans, both the escapees and the ones who are helping the Japanese. He eventually turns his attention on killing the wounded and children who are entering the escape boat first, taking So-hee hostage. Kang-ok fires at Yamada, but the bullet only grazes his leg and Yamada raises his sword to kill him. However, So-hee throws a molotov and lights him on fire, in which he is then decapitated by another Korean laborer, Park Moo-young.

Does He Have Any Mitigating Qualities or Freudian Excuse?

He mentions of having a family back at Nagasaki, but doesn't express any affection to them otherwise. Another potential mitigating factor is how he does work for a Greater-Scope Villain, Mr. Chiba, who is the main backer behind Hashima Island. However, this is nullified by how it was Yamada who came up with the plan to kill all of the Korean laborers and went through with it because he got Chiba's support for it, so Yamada is the main mastermind behind that plan. No Freudian Excuse either.

Does He Meet the Heinousness Standard?

The film has a pretty high heinousness standard, but he's probably the worst antagonist in the entire film. Nobody else has the idea of massacring all of the Korean laborers to hide the war crimes that occurred and when he was The Dragon to Daisuke, he was the cruelest character towards the laborers, going out of his way to murder them to get a better payment for himself.

Final Verdict?

What do you guys think?

Edited by DrUnknown on Dec 21st 2020 at 7:32:30 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#240896: Dec 21st 2020 at 7:35:42 AM

[tup]Yamada

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#240897: Dec 21st 2020 at 7:37:22 AM

Yes to Palamides and Yamada.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#240899: Dec 21st 2020 at 7:45:17 AM

Yes to Palamides and Yamada. Good job stepping to a new medium there Unknown (don't think I've seen a film proposal from you yet!)

Joffrey and Engel... no, it's not the "exact" same. Joffrey worships the power that Robert represents and other than two seconds of horror never thinks of the man as a person again. Conversely the latter falls into utter horror when her lover is killed and coming on to other men doesn't disprove her loving him. We need something far more substantive to call her Even Evil Has Loved Ones moment subverted. I'll also note that while Joffrey keeps, that point about Robert was a divisive one so I'm not sure it's the case I'd use to try and spin someone else in the hopes off seeing them listed.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#240900: Dec 21st 2020 at 7:54:28 AM

Hell yes to Yamada, great work!

Woodsy: As 43 says, Joffrey appreciates Robert as an ideal and for power, but he's shown consistently to be incapable of forming attachments as a human being. Engel and Bubi share ana ffectionate relationship and his death leaves her visibly shaken, aggrieved and furious.


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