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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#23876: Apr 4th 2014 at 5:18:43 PM

I've been playing through Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door lately and feel that the Shadow Queen needs to be cut. Looking at her entry, every single thing she does in that entry is Offscreen Villainy, only told to you by a man who solely exists to shed light on the game's backstory. In addition, she's a Generic Doomsday Villain - she only shows up at the end of the game and exhibits no personality whatsoever, and we have no idea why she wants to do whatever she wants to do with the world.

Having literally just finished watching a playthrough of the game, I would say more "generic Sealed Evil in a Can" than "Generic Doomsday Villain", but otherwise agree. She seems to have been added more because of Vile Villain Comedic Game issues than anything else, and even that doesn't really make sense because one other villain who has a lot more screentime is also played completely seriously.

[up]Not really. The opening cutscene "shows" the destruction of the old city in storybook style, but that's it.

edited 4th Apr '14 5:19:43 PM by nrjxll

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#23877: Apr 4th 2014 at 5:21:15 PM

Welcome back, Njr.

Yep, solidifies my opinion of her as a cut then. I'll go back at edit the entry for Charloss soon, and posted that effort post for the Tall Man

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#23878: Apr 4th 2014 at 5:25:05 PM

Actually, I'm not intending to participate again. I just happened to be browsing and saw something that I could offer immediate feedback on.

I may give my opinions on Captain America: The Winter Soldier after I see it tomorrow, though, as past experience suggests that some villain or other will probably be proposed.

finalsurvivor1 Since: Jan, 2012
#23879: Apr 4th 2014 at 5:30:20 PM

Well, yes, there is the book; I forgot about that. However, beyond that, we never see her doing anything, and there's no flashbacks to any of her other crimes. All we see is a single colorless picture of the destruction of the original Rogueport.

edited 4th Apr '14 5:31:24 PM by finalsurvivor1

Sterok Since: Apr, 2012
#23880: Apr 4th 2014 at 5:39:29 PM

Yeah, cut the Shadow Queen. On screen she doesn't do much aside from betraying Grodus (who freed her), possessing Peach, and attacking the audience.

randomtroper89 from The Fire Nation Since: Nov, 2010
#23881: Apr 4th 2014 at 5:50:58 PM

You do hear about her actions from Grifty, a storyteller, but they don't give a lot of detail. She's a cut.

AnewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#23882: Apr 4th 2014 at 6:39:59 PM

Actually, I'm going to give a [tup] to Shadow Queen. I thought it was established that by Mario standards, she's the only one who stacks up to Dimentio from the next Paper Mario game in terms of being pure evil without any sort of positive feature to her. So what if she only shows up at the end? We've had examples like the Bigger Bad of Scooby Doo Mystery Incorporated who did the same and still managed to be sufficiently heinous for all of their screen time.

Anyway, time to talk Jafar. I've been meaning to get around to it:

Who is Jafar?

Jafar is the Sultan of Agrabah's bastard son, an evil sorceror and main villain of Once Upon A Time In Wonderland. His main objective is to gather three bottled genies so that he can wish upon them to change the laws of magic (You can't bring people back from the dead, you can't force people to love you, and can't change the past), which will allow him to do as he pleases.

What has he done?

This will be difficult to explain, because there's so much he has done. To start with, when he was still just a boy who was filled with rage and hatred for his father, he came to the sorceress Amara asking her to teach him dark magic. Amara took him in as her pupil and also made him her helper in her plan to locate three genies. (As it would turn out later, the genies were her sons who only became genies because they stole water that could save their dying mother's life from a magic well, and now Amara wants her sons back.) Amara taught Jafar to be ruthless, to be willing to do whatever it took to get what he wanted. It worked out better that she'd hoped, for soon she fell in love with him, but he felt nothing for her. So before they were to go locate the third genie, Cyrus, Jafar turned his magic on Amara and turned her into a cobra-shaped staff, taunting her about how he never loved her as he did.

In the present day, Jafar is searching for Cyrus in Wonderland so that his plan can be complete, and in every episode he does something vile in order to get his way.

In episode 1, he "force chokes" the Red Queen once he's decided You Have Outlived Your Usefulness, but she persuades him to not kill her yet.

In episode 2, he spends most of his screentime magically tormenting and mentally abusing the Red Queen in order to assert his dominance, and at one point vaproized every one of her subjects that were in the room just so she could pay attention to what he had to say without distractions.

In episode 3, he lets loose a Bandersnatch to hunt down Alice (Cyrus' current master) and the Knave Of Hearts, and when this fails, he interrogates the Grendel who was present at the scene. He gets him to tell him the information he needed by promising to use his magic to end his torment, which he does by killing him afterwards.

In episode 4, he arranges the Knave to be publically executed, also forcing the Red Queen to pass the sentence since he knew that she might still have feelings for him. When this is thwarted, he threteans the Knave's life directly and forces Alice to use up her first wish to save his life. He then turns the Knave to stone and leaves with a threat to continue hurting everyone Alice holds dear until she submits to him and uses up all her wishes. (In a flashback, we also see him torture a man by driving a dagger deep into his hand, and then killing him upon being called the triggering word "bastard.")

In episode 5, he interrogates the White Rabbit about any weaknesses or loved ones Alice might have. At one point, he uses magic to rip the Rabbit's foot off, only mending it back on once he's told him about Alice's issues with her father. And even after that, he continues to torture him.

After not doing too much in episode 6, he brings Alice's father, Edwin, to Wonderland in episode 7, locks him up in a cage, and drinks a potion that allows him to impersonate Edwin so he can get close to Alice, pretending to be her father who's sorry for everything he did to her, playing off her psychological trauma. Once Alice gets wise to him, he brings out the real Edwin and suspends him in midair over a high altitude, threatening to drop him to his death. When Edwin starts to reveal information about Cyrus to Alice, Jafar drops him, prompting Alice to use her second wish.

In episode 8, he flies into a rage when he finds out that the Red Queen had taken Cyrus' bottle from him, and in that rage, he kills many of the Queen's and his own servants and blows up her caslte. He then casts a dark spell to seek her out and destroy her. It ends up hitting the Knave instead, so Alice is forced to use her final wish. (Or rather, the Knave makes it for her.)

In episode 9, he kills the guardian of the Jabberwocky's prison, who was trying to keep him out for his own good.

In episode 10, he has the Jabberwocky capture Will (the Knave) and Anastasia (the Red Queen) and locks them up in his dungeon. Since Will has now traded places with Cyrus as the genie and Anastasia is currently his master, Jafar orders the Jabberwocky to see inside Anastasia's head, feed off of her fears and pain, and Mind Rape her into making all of her wishes so that Jafar is now Will's master.

In episode 11, Jafar realizes that the wishing spell to break the laws of magic isn't working, so he holds a dagger to Anastasia's kneck and threatens to kill her if Will doesn't tell him what's preventing him from carrying out the wish. When he learns it's because Will doesn't have his heart inside him, he tracks down Alice and Cyrus, who currently have the heart, and nearly kills Cyrus in order to take it. His staff, being actually Cyrus' mother, ends up turning on him, but he still escapes with the heart. He puts it back into Will's body, which allows Will and Anastasia to properly reconcile their feelings for one another. Jafar breaks up their kiss, takes out his dagger, saying "Let's see how well that heart is working" and kills Anastasia right in front of Will.

In episode 12, he promises that if Will can bring back his staff (since it, or rather Amara, is required for the wish to come true) and allow him to break the laws of magic, he'll be able to bring Anastasia back from the dead. Now that his triumph draws near, he starts treating Jabberwocky like crap, much like he did the Red Queen. At the end, when Amara returns to her physical form and battles Jafar, Jafar finally realizes the connection between her and the genies, so he redirects a bunch of sharp glass shards at Amara's son, Cyrus, letting her know that her son will die unless she complies with helping him break the laws of magic, which she does.

Finally there's episode 13: Jafar first uses his new power to make his father love him, call him son, and say he's proud of him. Jafar then reveals that the reason he was wanting to do this so badly was to get psychological closure on his Daddy Issues not by recieving his father's affection, but by giving his father an affection for him just so he'd know what it felt like to be killed by someone he loved. Jafar proceeds to take his revenge on his father by magically drowning him. He then suggests that Amara is no longer needed, but by then Amara has fled the scene. He then puts the Vorpal Blade back into the Jabberwocky and leaves her in his dungeon. When Jabberwocky asks him a And Then What? question, he reveals that what he wanted most out of this whole ordeal was absolute power to do whatever he wanted, with no restrictions, limits, or weaknesses. Then he revives Anastasia as he promised, BUT makes her fall in love with him so that he and her can share a false love with each other right in front of a grief-stricken Will. He then raises an army of undead knights so that they can kill all his enemies and he can take over Wonderland. When they manage to capture Alice and bring her to him, he wants her to tell him where Amara is, since he knows she poses a threat to his new power. When she refuses to tell, he threatens to invoke the third law of magic, "do not change the past", by changing the past so that Alice never met her true love Cyrus and never came to know her greatest joy, leaving her an unloved, broken little girl. Alice still refuses to give in, giving Jafar a “The Reason You Suck” Speech about how he has and never will know true love, which is why he cannot ever truly win in the end. He's about to make good on his threat when a knight comes in and tells him that Amara was located. In the final confrontation, he kills Amara and is about to kill Alice and Cyrus, but he's tricked into evaporating the water that Amara turned into upon death so that it cannot be returned to the Well of Wonders, which angers the guardian and makes her turn him into a genie in place of Cyrus' brothers and Will.

Any Freudian Excuse or redeeming qualities?

Yes on the Freudian Excuse, Hell no on the redeeming qualities. His backstory is that as a boy, he lived with his mother, who was the only person he loved. When she died, she told him that his father by birth was the Sultan of Agrabah, and asked that he seek him out. But when he did, the Sultan wanted nothing to do with his bastard son at first. Eventually he made Jafar a servant to see if he could earn his love. The Sultan proved to be a very abusive father who would strike Jafar when he did wrong and even make his other son, the current prince, strike him too. Secretly, the Sultan hoped Jafar would fight back, but he did not, which made him seem "weak." So one day, out of nowhere, Jafar's father attempted to drown him in a bowl of water. When it seemed like the boy was dead, he was thrown out, but landed on a carpet with magical properties, which gave Jafar's feelings of anger towards his father the power to keep him alive. Jafar then became a street rat before seeing Amara at the market one day and asking her to be his mentor, since with magic, he could not only take revenge on his father, but could also become powerful enough to be known and feared by everyone - those are his exact words. He wants all to fear him. After he turned Amara into his staff, he returned to the palace, killed his half-brother, and took his father prisoner. When his father still would not call him son, Jafar vowed he would make him do so somehow, which is where breaking the laws of magic come in.

So there's his excuse and it's a plausible one for how an abuse victim can grow up to be the abuser. But many C Ms like Commodus or Lotso have such excuses, but they ultimately do not adequately justify or even explain any of the monster's heinous behavior. We are only made to feel sorry for Jafar as a child. He garners almost zero sympathy as a man, and the show does not attempt to give him any sort of Woobiefication, which is rare coming from a world that gave us the likes of Rumplestitskin, Regina Mills, Captain Hook, even this show's very own Anastasia, the Red Queen. While our hearts may go out to Jafar the abused little boy, that boy does not exist anymore. Jafar is too far gone into pure evil, malice, and cruelty to be excused in any way.

As for redeeming qualities, again, the only person he ever loved was his mother, and that was when he was still that boy who no longer exists in the present day story. Only once, in episode 12, does the subject of his mother come up, and Jafar refers to her using past tense - recalling how it felt when his loved one died, comparing it to Will's loss of Anastasia at his hands. He's not empathizing with Will, but using this to manipulate him. And in the scene, he is not at all feeling the sorrow and pain he's refering to first-hand. The emotion Jafar displays in this moment is "Oh yeah, there was this time I felt this devastated, I remember it.", not "I still feel devastated over this when I think about it."

Child Jafar wanted to love his father, but his father didn't love him back. Adult Jafar clearly does not love his father, and for good reason. But the big twist is that we're led to think that Jafar craves love and affection from his father, so he's attempting to break the laws of magic in order to make this happen, since normally you can't make someone love you using magic. But as I said earlier, his actual reasons for wanting to do this are not only for the psychological closure and peace of mind he'd get upon hearing those words from his father, but also for the closure and satisfaction of revenge he'd get by killing a father who was now repentent and loving of the son he'd once abused and tried to kill. He doesn't want to get or be given affection, he wants to forcibly give affection to his father just so said father will know the feeling of despair upon being murdered by someone he loves. So in the end, his Daddy Issues only serve to make him more vile and twisted.

In the end, it all comes down to two things. What Jafar tells Jabberwocky, that ultimately, his endgame goal for his entire plan beyond revenge on his father was to have power to do whatever he wants and go on hurting others in the proccess. And what Alice tells him: he does not know true love, he cannot give true love, and he cannot get true love, therefore he will never have it. So he is primarily characterized by his lack of love or concern for others, and his absolute lack of humanity in general. He is overall selfish, unempathetic, cruel, sadistic, abusive, misogynistic, and downright heartless.

Is he heinous by the standards of the story?

In this particular story, he IS the heinous standard. No other character on the show comes close to equalling him in evil, not even the Jabberwocky or Cora the Queen of Hearts in her one episode guest role. As far as the OUAT universe goes, the only other villain deemed a Complete Monster was Peter Pan from last year, so how does he stack up against him? Well, both of them are on pretty different scales. Jafar wants to be all powerful, while Pan pretty much already is. However, given Jafar's character, it's pretty safe to assume that with supreme demonic magical powers, he'd be every bit as bad as Pan, and even a bit less subtle or pragmatic in his cruelty too! As he is, he is absolutely without mercy or compassion, so he goes as far as he can with what he has, and is always wanting more so that he can continue to do what he does on a larger scale. He's pretty much Jafar from Disney's Aladdin were he stripped of everything cartoonish, caricatured, and quirky about him and played dead seriously: a pure evil sorceror who literally wants to have everything.

Verdict

Being heinous by OUAT standards, played dead seriously, feared and reviled by quite literally every character in-story, lacking in positive and redeeming features or altruism, showing no regret for any of his crimes, having a Freudian Excuse that gets utterly blown aside in the face of his heinous deeds and evil nature, and going full throttle over the Moral Event Horizon with each passing episode, Jafar gets a [tup] from me.

here's my reasoning for keeping Jafar: We see Jafar only care for his mother in flashbacks when he's very young. Since then, he grows, becomes addicted to power and cruelty and shows no sign he even remembers her in the present. The child he was and the man he becomes are two entirely different people

My point exactly. It's a sort of "that person died a long time ago" deal. The Jafar we see in the present is nothing but a monster.

edited 4th Apr '14 7:06:54 PM by AnewMan

CorrTerek The Permanently Confused from The Bland Line Since: Jul, 2009
The Permanently Confused
#23883: Apr 4th 2014 at 6:48:46 PM

A character only showing up at the end matters if they don't have much chance to do onscreen villainy, which is the Shadow Queen's problem from what I can remember.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#23884: Apr 4th 2014 at 6:52:28 PM

That's because the Nibiru Entity actually managed to kill a few thousand people on screen during the final episode.

despoa Since: Aug, 2012
#23885: Apr 4th 2014 at 6:54:30 PM

Now that Captain America: The Winter Soldier's out in the states, can we have an open discussion on Alexander Pierce? We could argue about Zola but most of his actions are Offscreen Villainy.

edited 4th Apr '14 6:58:50 PM by despoa

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#23888: Apr 4th 2014 at 7:43:25 PM

[up][up][up]I have to say, "out in the states" sounds like you don't give a damn about us non-American tropers. Considering that about half of released movies don't come out in other countries at the same time (usually a week later, sometimes four months later although that is rarer these days). That's probably not your intention, but keep in mind that for some of the people in this thread they are not going to be able to (legally) see new movies at the same time as the States).

But at least you remembered to use the spoiler tags for a brand-new work. Too many tropers here don't seem to be too concerned that others might not want things to be spoiled for them. Hell this thread and it's endless, spoiler-filled posts put me off seeing Wreck-It Ralph, which was a film I really did want to see but thanks to plenty of inconsiderate tropers the thing was spoiled for me months before it got to Australia.

CorrTerek The Permanently Confused from The Bland Line Since: Jul, 2009
The Permanently Confused
#23889: Apr 4th 2014 at 7:55:10 PM

It came out in several other countries before the US, is what he means. The internet's been alive with spoilers for, what, a week now?

Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#23890: Apr 4th 2014 at 8:09:59 PM

Hm, that's odd. Well here in Oz it's only just come out.

But really the rule should be that debate doesn't start until everyone has had a chance to see it (which would be about a week or two after it's latest release date wherever a troper here might reside).

despoa Since: Aug, 2012
#23891: Apr 4th 2014 at 9:01:01 PM

Assuming we don't have any Tropers here that reside in Japan but do in Turkey and Hungary, we would have to wait two weeks before a discussion can be started.

edited 4th Apr '14 9:02:59 PM by despoa

TheOverlord Since: Jan, 2015
#23892: Apr 4th 2014 at 9:40:21 PM

Does anyone remember Phantom 2040? It seems like Rebecca Madison is listed as a CM on the YMMV section of that show:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/Phantom2040

From what I remember of that show, Rebecca Madison was a truly unlikable person and the cause of most of the problems of that series, but she also loved her son. So she should be cut for having one redeeming quality.

edited 4th Apr '14 9:44:31 PM by TheOverlord

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#23893: Apr 4th 2014 at 9:55:32 PM

My issue is it sounds like Jafar is portrayed as a "made" monster, and I'm always iffy about listing those.

Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#23894: Apr 4th 2014 at 10:10:45 PM

Two weeks sounds reasonable before discussing Captain America: The Winter Soldier, that should give anybody here who's interested but not incredibly busy a chance to watch it. I'll probably watch it sometime in the next week with my family.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#23895: Apr 4th 2014 at 10:13:26 PM

Sounds more than reasonable here. I'm seeing it Sunday.

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#23896: Apr 4th 2014 at 10:18:36 PM

Prom Night (2008)

  • Complete Monster: Richard Fenton, a pedophile/former teacher who became obsessed with one of his students, Donna Keppel. To have her to himself, he murders her family including her little brother. After his arrest, and Donna had to identify him, he realizes she's there and terrorizes her by claiming he will get her no matter what. When he breaks out, he stalks Donna and her friends at the prom, killing attendents, and employees at the hotel that prom is being held. When the police close in on him, he manages to escape to Donna's house. He manages to succeed in killing Donna's boyfriend, Ronnie, before finally being killed by the poilice.

Was it decided he's too generic a slasher villain?

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#23897: Apr 5th 2014 at 12:05:20 AM

To be honest, that description seems fairly generic for horror villains. It would need some more sap to work for Complete Monster.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#23898: Apr 5th 2014 at 3:34:14 AM

Ah man, I saw the spoiler for Cap 2 (I don't hide spoiler tags) sad Hoping it doesn't ruin the movie.

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#23899: Apr 5th 2014 at 4:24:51 AM

From my last few posts I've submitted Cobb, Yoshida and Satan to the edit request thread and the YMMV pages.

[tup] on Jafar. Given what A New Man detailed in his breakdown, his Freudian Excuse doesn't seem to begin to explain his present depravity.

Re: Akasha: Queen of the Damned is a very loose adaptation of The Vampire Chronicles novels while Interview with the Vampire is an almost direct adaptation, so book!Akasha and film!Akasha are too different and would have to qualify seperately.

That said, the film version seems to qualify quite easily with basically no redeeming traits (not even her interest in Lestat bears out as actual love given the rest of her characterization). There's apparently a bit of Adaptational Villainy in that her reign of Kemet was much more tyrannical, as she was so bloodthirty that she nearly wiped out mankind altogether (proven as she drinks several hundred people to death in a single night later on in the movie), but leaves out other stuff like the rape as torture from the books.

Book!Akasha's moral agency is not a problem, clearly. What makes me doubt this version's qualification however (and this is from her wikia page) are two possible redeeming traits, namely the following:

"Akasha and her husband Enkil wanted their subjects to turn away from cannibalism and encouraged them to eat grains by farming. According to Marius in The Vampire Lestat, Akasha and her husband were not the first people in Kemet to follow this path, but they were the first rulers, and were perhaps influenced by earlier believers. Akasha became a beloved ruler for turning her people away from violence and toward peace."

And:

"She embarks on a mass killing of vampires, whom she finds by listening to their thoughts. She kills Baby Jenks, Laurent, and countless other weak fledglings. Akasha spared at least seventeen: Maharet, Mekare, Khayman, Louis, Jesse Reeves, Gabrielle, Armand, Daniel Molloy, Marius, Mael, Santino, Pandora, Eric, Vittorio, Thorne and the coven that made Quinn Blackwood: Manfred Blackwood, Petronia, and one from ancient Greece. These were either vampires that Lestat loved, old ones she could not kill easily, or those she could not detect because they blocked their thoughts from her." (emphasis mine)

That's difficult to ignore. Outlawing cannibalism in favor of farming could be some form of Pragmatic Villainy, but if she genuinely had a moral problem with it she probably can't qualify. She does seem to become more evil over time, so it could be that her character arc follows roughly the same pattern as Sauron in that she started out wanting order but eventually became evil incarnate. Why does she specifically spare people Lestat loved though? Unless there's an ulterior motive for that action she would disqualify for Even Evil Has Loved Ones.

edited 5th Apr '14 4:28:42 AM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#23900: Apr 5th 2014 at 7:19:55 AM

My issue is it sounds like Jafar is portrayed as a "made" monster, and I'm always iffy about listing those.

A statement made in Once Upon a Time in general is that all evil isn't born, it's made. The likes of Pan and Jafar are no exceptions. What makes them monsters is that they choose to go so far with that evil and stay over the Moral Event Horizon, whereas even some other nonrepentent villains would at least have Pet the Dog moments.

I just re-watched the scene where Jafar murders his father, and it occurs to me that I forgot to mention his reaction. When his father asks him what he wants from him, Jafar answers "the same thing I wanted since I was 10 years old." We're thinking that's his father's love, but it's actually revenge, which is indeed what 10 year old Jafar explicitly said he wanted to Amara when he met her. He's visibly emotionally touched by hearing his father's kind and loving words to him as a son, even though he made him say those words, and his voice is shaky too. You can tell that he's finally getting the emotional and psychological closure he wanted. Then he tells his father that receiving his affection is not all he wanted - what he truly wanted was to make his father know how it feels to be murdered by someone he loves - his voice goes menacing and deadpan at that part. Then he murders him. After his father drops dead on the floor, Jafar goes "Huh. Well....now, where was I?" And no, that's not a summation there - he literally says those exact words. He completely shrugs off the fact that he just murdered his father, something he'd been waiting years to do. To me, that's as creepy as Commodus' murder of his father, and it clearly shows how little the closure on his Daddy Issues ultimately meant to Jafar compared to the pursuit and exploitation of power to do whatever he wanted.

edited 5th Apr '14 11:05:33 AM by ANewMan


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